Digital Marketing Strategy: How to Succeed with SEO and Inbound Marketing with Rand Fishkin

Rand Fishkin is the CEO of SEO software company; SEOmoz. He co-authored the Art of SEO from O’Reilly Media, co-founded, and was named on PSBJ’s 40 Under 40 List and BusinessWeek’s 30 Best Tech Entrepreneurs Under 30. Rand is an addict of all things content & social on the web, from his multiple blogs to TwitterGoogle+Facebook, LinkedIn, FourSquare and even a bit of Pinterest. In his minuscule spare time, Rand enjoys the company of his amazing wife, whose serendipitous travel blog chronicles their journeys.

Listen to the Audio

Our Chat Today

  • how SEO has actually gotten easier, if you know what to do
  • how a marketing agency (or any small business) should begin their inbound marketing campaign
  • how to develop a lean SEO model and get it validated before you ever create any content
  • how curation should play a role in your content creation
  • the right way to curate so that Google and users will love you
  • an example of a bi-weekly curation done by SEOmoz that is hugely successful
  • how to think about SEO today so that you are in the lead in 5 years
  • the keys to on-page optimization
  • how to create unique value
  • how Rand spends his time
  • and so much more!

Digital Marketing Strategy: How to Develop a Content Marketing Strategy with Joe Pulizzi, Founder of the Content Marketing Institute

Content marketing is all the rage these days, but have you given thought to developing a strategy for your content?

Do you know how to create content that your audience will find valuable enough to share?

Do you know how to measure what is working with your content marketing?

In this episode of the Bright Ideas podcast, I’m joined by Joe Pulizzi, founder of the Content Marketing Institute – a leading source for research, webinars, and white papers on the science of effective content marketing.

In today’s discussion, you are going to hear Joe and I talk about:

  • How to develop a content marketing strategy
  • How to create content your audience will find valuable
  • How to measure what is working
  • What a Chief Listening Officer is and why you need one
  • How to set up listening outposts so you can hear what your audience is saying about your brand
  • Joe’s 5 step framework for developing effective content
  • How curation can play a role in your content
  • How he built Content Marketing Institute into the leader that it is today
  • How he first started to monetize the site when it was just 6 months old
  • His annual conference
  • and so much more…

More About This Episode

The Bright Ideas podcast is the podcast for business owners and marketers who want to discover how to use online marketing and sales automation tactics to massively grow their business.

It’s designed to help marketing agencies and small business owners discover which online marketing strategies are working most effectively today – all from the mouths of expert entrepreneurs who are already making it big.

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Connect with Trent Dyrsmid:



Dyrsmid: Hey there, Bright Idea Hunters, welcome to the Bright Ideas

Podcast. I’m your host Trent Dyrsmid. This is the podcast for business

owners and marketers who want to better understand how to use online

marketing and sales automation tactics to massively boost their business.

The way that we help you do that is we bring experts onto the show to share

with you their knowledge and what is working for them and that’s exactly

what we’re going to do here again today. I am very, very pleased to welcome

the poster boy for content marketing. The self appointed poster boy for

content marketing. The founder of The Content Marketing Institute, Joe

Pulizzi. I think I said that correctly.Joe

Pulizzi: That is right Trent. You got it.Trent: Alright Joe. Welcome to the show. It’s a real pleasure to have

you.Joe: Good to be here. Thanks for having me.Trent: All right. So I am sure there are a couple people in my

audience who may not have heard of you and may not have heard of the

Content Marketing Institute, so I just want to start it off with a little

bit about you and your background and why should they care about The

Content Marketing Institute?Joe: Sure. Content marketing is a new term to most but it’s an old term

for me. I’ve been kicking it around since about the year 2000, 2001. It’s a

whole idea that businesses today, to attract and retain customers, they

need to create valuable, compelling, and relevant content, similar to what

media companies have been doing for years. So that’s kind of what we do at

The Content Marketing Institute. We really preach that form of training and

education, mostly for Fortune 1000 companies. We have the largest event on

content marketing called Content Marketing World. It’s held every September

in Cleveland. We have a magazine called Chief Content Officer and like I

said, we do consulting for big brands that have lots of content and are

often confused about how to distribute that content for sales success.

Trent: Seems like a question a lot of people might be asking

themselves these days. So CMI, when you started it, was actually not even

named CMI. It was back in 2007 and I think in 2011, you sort of re-branded

and went in this, I don’t know if you would call it a new direction, but

I’ll let you answer. Why did you make that change?

Joe: The old name was called Junta 42 and we were actually an online

matching service where if a brand was looking for content, they needed to

create lots of content in whatever form it was, we would match them up with

agencies that could serve those needs. It was sort of like the

for content marketing if you will. It was very successful. Over three years

we had over 1,000 matches and lots of happy customers but as an

entrepreneur, it wasn’t the great financial business model and made the

pivot in late 2009, early 2010, rebranded everything as Content Marketing

Institute. Then thankfully things just took off and the event was a real

big success in 2011 and the magazine and it just went forward from that

stand point. It all was at that same time where a lot of these bigger

brands were waking up and saying, ‘Oh my gosh. Get social media?’ But it

was about what goes into that social media and a lot of brands were

honestly confused about how to do that because they were talking a lot

about themselves and not talking about things that their customers cared


Trent: Joe, do you have anything running on your computer that could

be consuming band-width? Any browsers open? Skype? Anything like that?

Joe: Yeah.

Trent: Can you turn all that stuff off?

Joe: Yup, yup. One second.

Trent: No problem.

Joe: Can you cut this out?

Trent: No. I don’t bother. I mean I can. But I don’t.

Joe: All right. Go ahead. I’m shutting things down as we speak.

Trent: All right. No problem. I mean if the pause is really long, I’d

chop it out. That’s extra work man. I’m trying to make this quality content

in the minimal amount of effort.

Joe: I’m with you man. All right. Here we go. Okay. There’s one down.

There’s two down. So hopefully that is a little bit better.

Trent: It is. So in this interview, I want to talk about two things.

First and foremost, I want to talk about content and content marketing and

all of the things so that the people who are listening to this can take

action after listening to this interview. There is also going to be some

people, I’m going to put myself in both camps actually, who are going to

want to know how did you build The Content Marketing Institute? How did you

make that successful? Because you’re an entrepreneur and I’m an

entrepreneur and there are lots of entrepreneurs listening to this. So

we’re going to get to that kind of in the second half. So, I guess the

first thing, so let’s say I’m a brand or whoever and I’m thinking, well

okay content marketing. I’m hearing this all the time and SEOs seem to be

getting a little bit pooh poohed these days. Where do I start? I guess I’ve

got to think of a strategy or something, right?

Joe: The biggest problem, Trent, every business out there is creating lots

of content. We did a research study, Content Marketing Institute with

marketing profs and basically year over year you find that 90% of companies

are doing content marketing. The problem is they’re not doing it very well

and they’ve got content all over the place. There are no goals behind it.

They have wishy-washy goals and what we’ve found is more than 90% of those

companies don’t actually have a content strategy which by the way scares

the crap out of me. Because you have a lot of companies out there, just

creating things with no real idea of what it’s supposed to do for the

business, which is scary.

But it also makes a lot of sense because at the end, I mean, Jay Baer

was the author of the Now Revolution, a good friend of mine. He says this

all the time and I love that he says it. All businesses today are actually

two businesses. You’re in the business that you’re in and you’re in the

publishing business. Well nobody told us that we were going to be in the

publishing business. It just happened because all those technology barriers

are gone. Consumer behavior has changed. Google has changed for that matter

and now what we know is we better create valuable, helpful content that

people share to, that link to, or you’re not going to be found. So it’s

really as simple as that.

I think if you look at, at least from the brands that we talked to,

they have three major goals when they come and talk to us. They say, ‘Joe,

I want to get found in Google. I’ve got to get found in search, ‘or ‘Joe,

I’ve got to drive online leads,’ or ‘Joe, how do I make social media work

for my business?’ I say, ‘Let’s take a step back and let’s figure out if

you have anything important to say to your target audience.’ Because we

have lots of stuff that we talk about, regarding to our products and

services. We don’t necessarily have that type of information in what I call

story form. Is it really helpful? Does it really position us as experts as

maybe the leading experts in our niche? So when our customers are ready to

buy, they buy from us. And how are we going to measure that in the first


So I guess my recommendation is always take a step back and ask the

question: Why? Why do you have a Facebook account? Why are you on Twitter?

Why are you on Linked In? Why do you have a blog? Why do you do that

newsletter? Because most of the time when we talk to big billion dollar

companies, they don’t even have an answer for that. Ask anybody why they

are on Facebook and you’ll get a million answers and none of them will be a

really good answer for growing a business.

Trent: Yeah, that’s an important one. ‘We’re doing it because

everybody else is doing it. Isn’t that a good enough reason?’

Joe: ‘Joe, we had to have one.’ I said, ‘No you don’t. You don’t have to

have a blog. You don’t have to be on Facebook.’ Figure out why you’re on

those channels and I think you’ll think differently about the content that

you create. If you think about it, you customers, they don’t care about

you. They don’t care about your products. They don’t care about your

services. They care about themselves. So you have to create information

that helps them to care about you so you can win their hearts and win their

minds and you do that with the type of content that media companies have

been creating for years.

Trent: Okay, so you get your ‘why’ figured out. This is obviously the

foundation of your strategy. But what do you do after that?

Joe: Well once you have your ‘why’ and once you understand who your target

audience is, so really who is it? And for most businesses it’s multiple

people. But let’s just simplify it here. So yeah, exactly. So, let’s say

you are a small business. Let’s not think about it in the Petco, AT&T,

Verizon terms of big enterprise. Let’s just say that you are a million

dollar, couple million dollar business. You’ve got a couple employees.

Things are going along well. You probably have three or four buyers of that

product. Could be CEO level. Could be VP of Operations level. Could be

marketing. I don’t know. Depends on what you’re selling, right? Or let’s

say you’re a HVAC company. Maybe your core buyer is the mom, which it is.

It actually is if you are an HVAC company. Figure out who that core buyer

is because in a lot of cases you’re not going to have time to set up

separate content strategies. So let’s simplify it. Who is that main buyer?

Who is that reader if you will? And then hopefully get that whole why

figured out. I call it a ‘content marketing mission statement’. Then once

you figure that out, then you can look at what your channel strategy will

  1. When I say channel strategy, that’s the blog, the Facebook, the

newsletter, those types of things.

Most companies start out with the channel. What we can do is we can

start off with the why to the who and then we can look at that channel and

figure out, okay, what are we going to put in these channels and what’s the

behavior that we want to see? Ask that question before you create that

content. I just talked to somebody today that has a blog. I said, ‘Why are

you doing the blog?’

‘Well, we wanted to have something to put out in social media.’ I

said, ‘Well how do you measure performance?’

‘Well, we’re not quite sure. We look at the referrals back to the

website.’ I said, ‘Figure out what the call to action is.’ Is it an email?

Maybe it’s an email subscription. Maybe it’s so you can own that database

which I think is, by the way, a great thing.

Trent: That’s for sure. That’s why I do this.

Joe: Exactly right. We can get into a whole conversation, Trent, about how

email is not dead, even though most people think it is. I think it’s the

most valuable connection we can make. More valuable than Facebook fan or

Twitter follower or anything like that. So I guess just simplify it. Really

think about how you can do good with your content. To who are you going to

create that content for?

What channels should you choose and less is more, mind you. You might

not need a Pinterest strategy folks. You might not need to be on Instagram

right now. Figure out what things you can do really well, the kind of

content you can be the best in the world at. At the end of the day, how are

you going to measure that performance and in a lot of cases for small

businesses, it’s actually having somebody sign up to get more information

from you so you can create that direct connection to them.

Trent: I like how you talked about the channel thing being more is

less. I think that one of the things that might make this overwhelming,

because I know what it’s like to be the small business owner of a two

million dollar business because I was that guy before this guy and you

don’t have any resources. You don’t have any time. You’re just like running

on this treadmill every day and some slick consultant says, ‘You need to

have yourself a content marketing strategy and get a Pinterest and a

LinkedIn, and a this and a that and a that, and a that, and a that.’ And he

rattles off six social networks and you’re going, ‘No. When am I going to

do that? When am I going to do that?’ So if you had to pick one outside of

your blog, because I think the blog is the most important. Do you have a

different opinion that differs than that?

Joe: No. No. I mean if you’re talking from a small business, I would look

at the blog as your magnet. That’s who you’re going to bring everything

into and then you have your social media outpost that you can use to bring

people into that blog.

Trent: Yeah. So I know what you mean. But I want to make sure my

listeners do. Please explain the difference between your ‘magnet’ and an

‘outpost’, because they have kind of different jobs don’t they?

Joe: Actually, they do. And I would start at it from this point. I talked

to, this is a couple months ago, but I remember it really well. It’s an

HVAC company and we were talking about, should they start a blog and why it

would make sense for them and they said, ‘No, we’re going to put all of our

content we put on Facebook and we link everything to Facebook and that’s

how we’re going to do our content strategy.’ I said, ‘That’s one way to do

  1. That’s fine.’ But I just made the point to them. I said, ‘You do

realize that Facebook owns that content. All the links that go to that,

Facebook gets all the link authority with that Google would deem to that.

You’re actually helping Facebook a lot. All the people that like you on

your Facebook business page, that’s owned by Facebook too. So at the end of

the day, Facebook could just shut that down and you don’t own any of those

connections.’ I said, ‘Why would you give Facebook all that power?’

So it doesn’t have to be a blog. Trent, a blog is just a tool, right?

In some cases, it’s just a website, but it’s something that you own and

it’s something that you can easily publish content from. That’s the

simplest way to look at it. So why I like a blog is the fact that that’s

where your really great content can be and then let’s think of Facebook as

an outpost. Let’s say you create a really interesting, helpful piece of

content on your blog. Then what would an outpost be? Then you might share

that post on Twitter, to those people that follow you or those people that

follow certain hash tags, that can come back to your blog, or you could

share the image from your blog post on Facebook. Because Facebook is very

visual, and you might have a little, couple sentences about what is in that

helpful blog post and then that would link back to your Facebook page.

So that’s where, maybe to think about it is, yeah I think ‘magnet’ is

the best way to look at it because if you own that and everything else is

almost like you’re syndicating the content out so that people can then find

you. At the end of the day you’re at a place, your blog, where you can

actually do something about that person on your site and that could be, in

my case, for a small business, it would be ‘Sign up for more great

information.’ so that I can continue this conversation.

Trent: I did an interview last week with Marcus Sheridan. Are you

familiar with him?

Joe: I love Marcus. Absolutely.

Trent: Smart guy. And his comment was, ‘I realize that comments,’ on

his blog, ‘was not a business model.’ And I love that because it really

drove home the point of having the mailing list. I mean you can get all

this comment love on your blog. And he also said to me, it was either in

the interview or off camera, not a one of the people who ever hired him as

to come in as the sales line consultant, were one of the people that

commented. I found that exceptionally interesting.

Joe: Well here’s the dirty little secret. And this is my take and I would

probably agree with Marcus on this. I think engagement online is highly

overrated. Everybody talks about ‘Oh we’ve got to have engagement and oh,

we’re not having comments on our blogs.’ My former company that I owned and

sold a year ago was called Social Track. It was a blogging service for

small businesses. Most of our audience were HVAC repair men and installers.

I talked to a lot of them. They are like, ‘Joe, you’re helping us with all

these blogs and we’re not getting comments.’ I said, ‘Yeah, but you’re

getting people to sign up to get more information from you. You’re getting

people to actually call your phone number and you’re getting sales. Do you

really care if you get comments?’ No, you don’t care. They just feel like

they should get comments.

I think it’s great if you can get that kind of engagement on

commenting but I would agree with Marcus. I mean in a lot of cases that may

be a different buyer altogether. It could be somebody that is looking for

their own influence or strategy. A lot of people, if you’re answering their

questions, they may just go, get that detail, want that detail and need to

contact you or sign up for more information via email. So, I would really

look at the comment as a ‘user indicator’, I call it. It’s something that

could show performance but in most cases, I don’t think it tells much about

if somebody is going to buy or not.

Trent: No, I don’t think so either. My previous blog used to get a lot

of comments. Bright Ideas is growing faster than that blog. I get more

iTunes downloads than that blog. I get more people writing me an email to

rave about it but get almost no comments on Bright Ideas itself. I’m to the

point now where I’m like, ‘Well I don’t really care because it doesn’t seem

to matter because the other metrics are the ones that I’m more interested

in.’ And my list growth is faster than it used to be with the other one as


Joe: There you go. Right there, right? Everybody should listen to that

again where you just say list growth. For a small business, list growth,

that is your own media channel and that is the one that you should look

over all the other stuff, the Facebook likes, the followers, all that

stuff. It’s the list growth is number one.

Trent: All right, so there are people who are listening to this.

They’ve got a small business. They are doing a couple million bucks or half

a million bucks. They are not blogging yet and they are going ‘Okay, okay.

I’m interested so far but I don’t know what to write about.’ What do they


Joe: Talk to your customers. Well first of all, I find that very hard to

believe. And by the way, we get it all the time. Oh, I don’t have enough

content. I don’t have a good story. Think of it this way. We’re not telling

a story like once upon a time telling a story. We’re telling a story like

‘what are my customer’s pain points?’ What keeps them up at night and I

guarantee you have the answers to those questions. I’m sure you heard from

Marcus. I mean Marcus is king of writing down the questions of his

customers and frankly if you just talk to a couple of your customers and

write down their questions or talk to customer service or talk to your

employees and think about all the questions that you get, all the time,

related to your business, you would have more content ideas that you could

possibly handle. Most people just don’t do that, so I think we think of

‘Oh, I can’t talk about that product anymore.’

You’re right. You’ve got enough of that kind of content. You’ve got

tons of product content, tons of services content. Focus on what’s really

keeping your customers up at night, what really their pain points are, and

that’s the type of content we want to focus on. So if you don’t know, if

you honestly don’t know, talk to your customers. If you want to take a step

two, talk to your employees.

Trent: Yeah, I knew that was the answer you were going to give. I

loved how Marcus made it so incredibly simple. What are all the questions

that people have before they buy something? Okay, we’re going to create

content to answer every one of those questions and now his pool business

has a ton of leads coming in all the time. There is another kind of cool

little idea and I don’t remember who I got this from so I can’t attribute

this to the person, but it was pay attention to the other blogs in your

niche and see which articles are getting the most comments and the most

shares and the most tweets, and those are the topics that people care about

and then research and write your own version to express your opinion on

that topic.

Joe: That’s a great way to put it. We’ve used, I’ve used Google alerts

forever. If you’re tracking certain key words. Let me take it back to HVAC.

You might track air conditioning in your area and see what people are

talking about air conditioning, heating, global warming, those types of

topics. There are things that in the news. Let’s say the SAG Awards were on

last night. You’ve got the Oscars coming up. You could do things like that

but related to your business. Top lists are amazing. You can curate other

top blogs out there. So let’s say some of your even competitors have some

amazing content out there. You could do a roundup of different articles.

Believe it or not those types of things work and I think it’s all about

thinking about what is your content marketing mission.

Here’s a good one for small businesses. What’s INC magazines mission?

If you read INC magazine, you know that they are targeting small businesses

and entrepreneurs with very, very helpful pieces of content in different

forms, in order for small businesses to be more profitable. That is their

editorial mission. That is their content marketing mission. That’s what you

as a company need to get, where if you’re thinking about your customer,

what is that over-arching statement that is really going to help them take

the next step, as it relates to your business or your industry.

I think if you just wrote that down, that can be your guiding

principle for all of the other content that you create. Then you’ll say,

‘Well that piece of content that we want to create or that employee

suggested doesn’t fit because it doesn’t fit within our mission.’ At least

you have an overriding vision statement, so you know what steps you need to

take and not get confused and say ‘Oh we’re going to talk about this over

here.’ ‘No we’re not. It doesn’t fit in our mission.’

Trent: In other words, if you were to think about what is the top or

maybe top two or three problems that our prospective customers are trying

to solve? That’s the stuff they care about most. Like, for example, in the

marketing agency space I know that their top two problems are unpredictable

revenue and not enough leads. So, every interview that I do with marketing

agencies, I ask them always about those two things. What are you doing to

generate recurring revenue and what are you doing to cause growth to occur?

So if you keep those two things in mind, it’s awfully easy to keep yourself

focused. And there’s always more, especially if you’re reading other

people’s stuff, there’s always more ideas to be shared and share.

Joe: Well you bring up the marketing agency and I’ve worked with marketing

agencies for a long, long time and from a content marketing perspective I

can tell you the number one failure is the fact that it’s the lack of

focus. When they create content it is all over the place. And when I mean

all over the place, it’s all over the place industry wide because they’ll

say ‘Oh, we cover healthcare. We cover financial. We do manufacturing. We

do everything.’

‘No you don’t.’ Of course, you dabble in everything. But wouldn’t it

be more profitable to really focus on a core area? It’s the same thing for

content marketing and that’s why they’re not successful because they talk

about everything. The smaller you can get from a content niche stand point

the better and the more successful you would be. But most of us like to go

wide. ‘Oh we’re going to cover pet supplies.’

‘You are? Well isn’t the experts at pet supplies like Pet Smart and

Pet Co., they sort of have a corner on that market. Let’s figure out where

you can really be an expert’. And I would say I’m going to talk about pet

supplies for elderly Americans in Southeast Florida who like to travel in a

  1. And I’m talking that’s how specific we want to get.

That’s our buyer because then you’re just talking to that buyer and

then that’s where the opportunity is. So if you’re a small business, I

would really get niche and really take seriously the question where can you

be the leading expert in the world? When I started Junta 42 now Content

Marketing Institute, content marketing, I mean that was a whole new thing.

Nobody used that term at all and I said, ‘Yeah we can be the experts in

content marketing in the world if we focus on this’. If I was starting the

business today, I wouldn’t choose content marketing. Too broad.

Trent: Yeah. Sound strategy. So, one of the things I don’t think I did

very well when I was running my tech company that we talked about off air

was really honing in on who my specific customer was. And now I do so much

it’s even defined on my about page on Bright Ideas. There are basically two

people that I create content for. What are some tips that you would give to

someone who has not yet been through the process to define their avatar

because we’re all scared that we’ll get so focused but that we might lose

sales with these people over here. That what it used to be for me. I didn’t

want to get too focused because I thought then the other people won’t call

me but that’s kind of a dumb way to think about it.

Joe: Yup. And that’s how most people do because they’ll say well we don’t

want to do anything because if we focus on this audience we might lose

someone else and those people will still call. That’s not the issue.

Because I don’t know how you’re getting those anyways. They are coming in

through referrals, other ways, whatever. They will still come in. Focus on

where the bills get paid. Where, basically, and I would also say if you’re

a small business or an entrepreneur where your passion’s at? I mean that’s

really where we want to focus on. If you haven’t done it before, I like

looking at the very simple, like if you were thinking about an 8 1/2 x 11

sheet of paper. Get a picture of this person in your head. Who is that?

That’s Jeremy. Jeremy is an IT director. Jeremy goes out for coffee in the

morning. Jeremy’s got a girlfriend. Jeremy uses a smartphone 20% of the

time. Really, get a good feel for Jeremy and that’s who we’re writing to.

Why is it so important? Because it’s not going to be you just writing. You

might not even write the content of your small business or marketing agency

owner or whatever. You have other people writing that. What happens is

whoever is telling that story, they don’t have that buyer in front of them

and how are they supposed to tell a story if they don’t know who they are

writing to and that’s why when you outsource content, you’re usually not

happy with it because you’ve never told them exactly who you’re writing to.

Give them the canvas so they can actually paint the picture.

Trent: How do you know, Joe, that Jeremy is the right guy? Because

that was one of the things that I thought. How do you figure that out?

Joe: I think you do it, at first, by hypothesis. You know the business,

right? You’ve done your research. You’ve talked to your customers. I mean

if you have customers, prospects, you talk to them. If you put any kind of

a business planning document together, you know who you’re targeting right?

Here it is. I’ve done the surveys. I’ve done all the stuff that you know to

  1. Then the best way to do it is you start creating content, you will get

feedback. When we talk about what the structure is of a content marketing

department, there is a role in there called the Chief Listening Officer.

That is often done by a social media manager in most companies. When

content goes out, two things can happen. You can get a piece of feedback

and you do something immediately with that feedback. ‘Oh, it’s got to go to

customer service. It’s got to go to product marketing. That’s got to go to

sales.’ That’s great, right? Your content is getting a reaction. You’re

going to send that out. You also might say, ‘Oh that has to go back to the

person that’s leading our content strategy because we need to adapt the

content strategy because of that feedback.’

I’ll give you an example. When we started Chief Content Officer

magazine and the kind of content we produced on Content Marketing, it was almost the identical target. But what we learned was

that the people that were enjoying the magazine were more strategic. These

were higher level people. These were directors. These were VPs. The people

who were enjoying our content online were the doers, the marketers, the

social media managers, the content managers, corporate journalists,

corporate editors, those types of people. Two very, very different people

but we had it all kind of meshed in one when we started. That was about

nine months of feedback that we took to get to that level. So I think you

start with your best guess. Don’t worry about it. You’re going to make

mistakes. Get that feedback and you’ll quickly learn, if you’re listening,

which you should be. Jim McDermott, a mentor of mine for many years. He

always said, ‘You want to set up listening posts as a good journalist

wherever you can. Set up listening posts for your current employees, for

customers out there, so that you can get a feel for what’s going on in the

marketplace so you can create better content.’

Trent: And can social media outposts be these listening posts or is

there something better?

Joe: Social media is obviously the easiest one to go after. If you’re not

listening on, let’s say, Twitter for sure, I mean just about every type of

person out there, at least to some extent, is on Twitter. So you can go out

and listen on Twitter. Listen on the hashtags. For B2B LinkedIn is

fantastic. You’ve got other places like Cora. If you don’t know any of

those then just use Google alerts. Set up your free Gmail account. Listen

using Google alerts but honestly, Trent, I love talking to people. I love

the good old fashioned, I call it the reader call and I’ve been publishing

for a long time. You actually call a reader and you talk to them. What do

they think of the magazine? What do you think of online? What are you

getting out of it? What are you not? We take all that together. Surveys are

fantastic as well. I mean online surveying tools are pretty much free now.

Use those as well.

Trent: Yeah, Survey Monkey, if you’ve never done that before is a

terrific one and it’s free to use. Alright. I think the only part of the

content, before I shift gears to talk about how you made CMI so successful

is the whole measurement aspects. You know, you’re doing this stuff and

you’ve got Google analytics and you’ve got Facebook insights but it’s kind

of all over the place. If someone, if they don’t know what to look for,

what are the things they should look for and how should they measure it?

Joe: I think the first thing is you’ve got to make sure you figure out

what your goal is because there is no one measurement. How do I measure

social media? I would say, ‘Well why are you on social media? What are you

doing?’ So, let’s say if your goal was, ‘Oh we want to retain our

customers’, well those measurement metrics are much different if you wanted

to create top of the funnel activity. So if it’s top of the funnel activity

that you’re after, I think what we already talked about was actually

getting people, things like where are we landing on our top search engine

keywords. Like, for example at CMI, we have a running list, a changing

list, of 50 keyword variations. I know where we are at in those at all

times. I know where our competitions at and I know where we are trending.

So that’s one way to measure it so we know how we’re bringing people in.

Social media shares are a very important one. Number one is List

Scrub. We track it every day. We want to see how we’re trending. Where are

they coming from? Which posts are getting more people to sign up and which

posts aren’t? Which contributors are doing better and which ones aren’t?

For my small business what we’ve looked at is we can track revenue much

more effectively once we have them in the database so that’s why the email

is critically important. Let’s say you’re going to do something more

traditionally, I mean this is online marketing we’re talking about.

But if you’re talking about retention, you might look at a newsletter

or a magazine going to customers. Well in that case, you’re going to show

measurement, you do an AB test. Hold some back. What’s somebody spending

that getting the newsletter versus somebody that is not getting the

newsletter? Those types of things. That’s bringing back year and years of,

you know, the AB tests and publishing with those types of things. I would

just first figure out what are you doing and then figure out what your

return on objective. I cannot stand ROI, to say return on investment. In

content marketing, what does that mean? I want to know what your return on

objective is. What are you trying to do and then we’ll figure out the

social metrics, the sharing metrics, the lead gen metrics or the sales

metrics that you can put against that objective.

Trent: I want to ask you one mildly technical question. This is for my

own selfish interest but I’m pretty sure other people will want to know the

answer. You said, which posts are causing the most opt in? So, you have got

an opt in box on your side bar which I am assuming is the same piece of

code no matter what post I’m looking at. Then down towards the bottom of

the post, you have another opt in box which, how I would do that, is I

would have used a plug in to put the same piece of code at the bottom of

every post so I wouldn’t necessarily know which post was the one that was

causing the most opt-ins to occur. How are you guys doing this so you’re

getting that data?

Joe: You can do it through Google analytics and setting up and I’m not the

Google analytics person so bear with me, but what is it called? Setting up

a funnel? Set up a funnel in there so you can track by posts, which ones

get conversions.

Trent: Do you have to do that for every single post? Do you have to

make a new funnel in analytics or is there a way to have that [inaudible


Joe: I actually don’t know. I need to check on that. I don’t know how

we’re doing it. I can tell you that what I do know is I can tell how many

people sign up on the bottom versus the side versus here’s the number one

thing and I don’t know if you’ve been to your site a couple times and

you’ve seen a pop up?

If you’ve seen that pop-up that’s Ippity. Ippity is integrated within

WordPress and that actually, our dirty little secret is, I cannot stand pop-

ups as a user. But I love them as the publisher because more than 50% of

our sign-ups come directly through that pop up.

Trent: Mine is even higher. I think I’m at 63% it is, by far.

Joe: It’s the dirty little secret of the business that we’re in that we

all cannot stand pop-ups, but they work.

Trent: Yeah, I’m able to track which location, the number, the

percentage, all that but if you can talk to your person after and wouldn’t

mind emailing me how to do that in analytics?

Joe: I will check on that, absolutely.

Trent: If it’s something I can republish on the post for the

listeners, I will do that as well.

Joe: Fantastic.

Trent: All right. I want to shift gears now and talk about the

building of the Content management or rather Marketing Institute. So, it

says you’ve got over 30,000 people on your list and you re-branded in late


Joe: ’10. May of 2010.

Trent: So May of 2010, so you’re two and a half years with this brand

name? Yeah?

Joe: Correct.

Trent: So, let’s kind of go back to your first six months. What kinds

of results did you get? Like how big did your list get within your first

six months and then what were some of the activities that you were using to

get traction?

Joe: The difference between what we were doing before and when we launched

the Content Marketing Institute is it’s a multi-author blog. So what we do

is we find contributors from the outside and every day, this is new, I have

the Saturday post. I used to have my own blog on a different platform. But

every Saturday is my blog but the other six days are contributors and there

is a very specific reason why we did that. Because we had our network. I

had my network. Employees had their networks but we wanted to reach our

contributors’ networks. So influencers in the industry because we wanted to

reach out as far as we could and get people talking about us and content

marketing and sharing our stuff that wasn’t being shared.

You have to do that through, I like it, but you don’t have to, but

the best way to do that in my opinion is through an influencer strategy and

we use these contributors. So what we do is we sign them up. We say ‘Hey,

would you like to contribute on our blog? Here’s our blog guidelines.’ They

submit the content. We have an editor on staff that edits that piece of

content like crazy because we want that contributor to look like a rock

star and then when that piece of content comes out, they do look like a

rock star. It’s fantastic. And you know what those people do? They share it

with their network. We don’t have anything attached to that network right

now but they get our content. They come back to our site. We can convert

them. They can come back the more they see Content Marketing Institute is

doing great things.

We’ve added over 150 contributors. So let’s say over the first six

months we had 30, 40 contributors. We knew really quickly that this was

going to work well because at the time I think our traffic. We just look at

traffic numbers. I think we were doing about maybe 15,000 to 20,000 unique

visitors every month. And now, I think the last time I checked, we were

over 150,000. That happened in a very short period of time just because of

the fact that we were getting that kind of reach that we weren’t normally

getting and that’s also because of the linking then. We got such

credibility with Google really fast because of all the inbound links that

we got. I love the model of the multi-author blog. I think that more

organizations should use it. I think if you’re a small business listening

to this, you should really take it and because of the fact that you’re

saying ‘Hey, we want to share as much great content about the industry as

possible and we’d like to share it on this platform’. It can really work

for a lot of companies.’

Trent: So when you were at that point and you didn’t have a big

following and you didn’t have a lot of traffic and you’re going out there

to these people and you’re saying hey, why don’t you write for free for my

blog because it’s going to benefit. What did that conversation look like?

Because I’m right there right now. I would love to have a lot of

contributors. If you’re listening to this and you want to contribute, get

in touch.

Joe: This didn’t just start when CMI launched. This started when I

launched the company in 2007. So before the rebrand. Basically, I call it

giving content gifts. So we would use the tools like Google alerts, like

Twitter, to find out well who are those influencers? The best question to

ask is where are my customers hanging out when they are not on my site?

Make a list of those. Those could be media companies. Could be bloggers.

Could be other influencers. Could be competitors. Make a list of those. And

then what you do is that becomes part of your content distribution

strategy, and I’ll give you an example.

So let’s take Twitter. Most people, for the most part, they share

their own content. Some things that are interesting but a lot of their

content is self serving. ‘Hey, we’re doing this, we’re doing that. We’re

great.’ What we did on Twitter and what I did specifically is I would take

that influencer list and you could start with 10 to 15 and I would

consistently share their content that was relevant to my audience, but I

would share their content. And you do this for months without doing

anything. Or most people go wrong when they go and say, ‘Hey would you

contribute to my blog or podcast?’ They don’t know you from Adam. What you

want to do is you want to keep sharing their stuff because when you go to

them in a month or two months, they are going to know you and they will say

yes because you’ve been sharing their content and they love you for it.

There is not anybody out there that would say ‘Stop sharing my stuff’.

Everybody gets the game. They know it. They love it. So you need to build

that rapport with them.

My good friend Andrew Davis who wrote a book called Brandscaping, he

coined this whole idea called ‘Social Media 411’. The whole idea is of

every six social media posts, one is your promotional post about your

product and service. So get that out of the way even though nobody will

probably read it. One is your piece of educational content or helpful

content on your site. And then four, that’s helpful content that you’re

sharing from other influencers. You’re letting them know you’re tagging

them on Twitter. Tagging them on Facebook so they know and that’s how

you’re building your network. We’ve done that and now we probably get about

four or five people that want to contribute a day. We can’t even handle all

the contributors. This has happened over a three year period. But I just

call it giving content gifts. The more you give, the more you will get, I

promise you it will work that way.

Trent: Please feel free to refer those people to my way.

Joe: I would be happy to Trent.

Trent: Okay. Thank you. All right, so you started to use this multi-

author model. You started to get traction quickly. Are you monetizing yet

in your first six months? Or are you just building?

Joe: When did we monetize? Yes. We did. We have a unique model that I

probably stole somewhere called The Benefactor Model. We called it Content

Marketing Institute. We wanted to be like an industry organization around

the concept of content marketing. Went to some companies that I already had

relationships with and sold the concept of what the institute was all about

and we had three or four companies basically fund us from the start about

this concept. If you scroll down to the bottom of Content Marketing, you’ll see ten benefactors there. I sold it as ‘Limited to

ten and you’d need to sign up now for X amount of money’. and right away,

actually before we launched the site we had already had money behind it. So

that’s a very good way to do it, if you can get it. Let’s say you can’t. So

basically that was our monetization to start with. It didn’t seriously. Go


Trent: I wanted to ask what did that conversation look like? What was

in it for them? What did you say to them? What did you charge them?

Joe: Shared the vision with what we were trying to do. I could only use

the traffic that we had from the previous site. I said ‘Here is what the

vision is. This is going to be the leading educational platform, so a lot

of smoke and mirrors.’ Did the best we could. But what I promised them was

that they would have first right of refusal forever on that spot. I would

always limit it to ten. And that they would receive 10% of the inventory of

our, basically, square banner on the right side and on every page of the

site they would have a logo and link.

Trent: Okay, so….

Joe: In addition, if they wanted to, and we would have to go through

approval process but we would also let them blog once a month about

something that would interest our customers but it would have to be

approved by editorial. That was the program. That was the benefactor


Trent: I see them down all along the bottom. Curada. Brand Point. PR

Newswire, etc. You mentioned that they get some other real estate as well?

Joe: There’s the banner on the right side. There are two things that will

go there. There could be a house ad or there could be one of our banners

from our benefactors. If there’s a square on the right side.

Trent: Right now I’m seeing, towards the top, so they attend our

upcoming event Content Marketing World Sydney. That’s a house ad I’m


Joe: That’s a house ad. That’s a house ad.

Trent: In that space is where you’ll rotate through your other guy.

Your benefactors?

Joe: If you hit refresh a couple times and you should see that go to a

couple different, you’ll see a couple pop up from our benefactors.

Trent: The banner that’s to the left of that, the bigger one, is that

a paid? Do you just sell that to whomever? Or how does that one get filled?

Joe: That, technically, is always our own inventory that we’re selling.

That could be our white papers. They actually go to sponsored material that

could be our events, that could be our research projects.

Trent: And so these ten benefactors were people that kind of knew you

and had done business with you before? It wasn’t like you were making cold

connections to try and sell these people on this vision.

Joe: The first one. So let’s put it in perspective. The first couple I

knew. Then once we had some traction where I’d be able to sell, we sold all

of them in about six to eight months. I think all of them were sold. And

the longest time that there has been one of those available was about a

half an hour. We’ve got a waiting list for people to sign up for them.

Trent: What do people have to pay to be one of these ten?

Joe: It’s $25,000 a year to do that.

Trent: A year. Well that definitely helps.

Joe: What’s great about those is it’s reasonable, which is wonderful.

That’s a foot in the door to a lot of the other things that we do. So if

you look at those sponsors on there you will notice that a lot of those

sponsors are our sponsors for Content Marketing World. They advertise in

our magazine. But what happened first was that benefactor.

Trent: Okay. All right, so you started to monetize with them very

early on. What was next? An event? More content? Keep walking me through.

Joe: When we made the decision, when I said basically this old model is

not working. All entrepreneurs listening to this, the pivot happened,

right? And I said, ‘That’s it. We’re going to go this direction’ and I made

the decision that I’m going to give 100%. We’re going to go all in and I

said well, if we’re going to be the leading resource for content marketing,

we’ve got to have the leading event. We’ve got to have the leading

magazine. So at that same time, when

launched, three months later, September we had already committed. We said

Content Marketing World 2011 is going to happen. So we announced it a year

in advance that we were going to do an event.

To be honest with you, the original plan was to get 100 or 150 people

there and we were blessed to have 650 show up. And we knew we were on to

something at that point. The same thing with the magazine. At first when we

launched the magazine in January of ’11, had to do the same thing with the

benefactor. We pre-sold. ‘Hey, it’s going to go to 20,000. It’s going to be

great. Yada yada.’ I had to call in a few favors here and there for people

to advertise. But, it worked out well from that standpoint. The magazine

came along in January. That was all the build up to the event which

happened in September of ’11. Then ever since then it’s been rolling. We’ve

been adding all kinds of wonderful things and then last year’s event got

over 1,000 people.

Trent: That’s fantastic. When you re-branded from and I don’t

remember, Junta 42?

Joe: Yeah, that’s okay. Junta 42. Nobody could remember it anyways. That’s

one of those things where you think. Here’s a little piece of advice for

people on this call. If you think you’re going to come up with the coolest

web 2.0 name. You know what? Sometimes boring is better. Honestly, Content

Marketing Institute, to me, is so boring but you know what? People don’t

have to ask what you do anymore. People know exactly what they do. At least

they get a good ball park idea when you say Content Marketing Institute.

Education and training around content marketing. Yes. Junta 42, I spent

more time explaining what we did and you know. You live and learn.

Trent: So you had a staff helping you right from the get-go? Because

you had built this other company and had people on board. Was there ever a

time when it was just you behind CMI?

Joe: If you’re familiar with Penton Media? Penton Media is the largest,

independent business media company in North America. I ran the custom media

division there. I left in March of 2007. I was open for business in April

of 2007 and it was just me. It was just me for quite a long time. Probably

about a year and then my wife came on board. We’re a complete 100% virtual

company. About ten full time people all over the world and we use about 30

or so additional contractors. But for the most part it was me just to


Trent: I love the virtual model. I anticipate that I will have staff

with the software company I’m a co-founder of and even Bright Ideas as it

grows but I don’t want to have offices again.

Joe: Well why would you? Unless you actually have customers that have to

see you, like have to go see you every day. There is no reason. By the way,

ego got to me because I actually looked at office space. I’m like, ‘Oh, I’m

going into business for myself. I’ve got to find an office space.’ No you

don’t. You don’t have to. And the other thing is you don’t have to hire

people full time either. That’s a whole other thing. There’s a ton of

people out there that love the 30 hour flex time. They want to have some

things to do on the side. They already have benefits maybe through a spouse

or whatever and they are willing to work whenever you need them to work and

it has worked fantastic for us and we love the model.

Trent: How do you find all those people? Are you using the Freelancer

and Odesks of the world? Are they coming to you now?

Joe: Some of the people were people that I’ve worked with in the past. So,

a lot of people that I worked with at Penton that I knew. But our content

director, I had met her, I didn’t even meet her. I knew of her on Twitter

because I saw what she was sharing on Twitter. Took me to a couple of her

blog posts and then basically sent her an email, talked to her on the

phone. She was like our first major content hire and I didn’t meet her

until nine months after we hired her.

Trent: Wow. Nice.

Joe: For our industry, like if you’re a marketing agency, I look at their

social media platforms and I look at their blogging and that’s what we kind

of stick to. It’s a really good indicator of what they do.

Trent: Yeah, absolutely. Sadly, I am running into a time constraint

now. Which totally sucks because I want to keep going. So I am probably

going to be inviting you back again in the not too terribly distant future.

It has been absolutely a pleasure to have you on. I look forward to meeting

you in person at one point in the not too distant future because you know

I’m going to be at your next CMI event.

Joe: That would be great. Trent, it’s been a pleasure. If you ever need

anything let me know. I love talking about this stuff.

Trent: Yeah, no problem. Last question. If people want to get a hold

of you, what is the easiest way to do that?

Joe: Content Marketing for the business, for

  1. I’m @JuntaJoe on Twitter and Content Marketing World is September in


Trent: Alright. Terrific. Joe, thank you so much for making some time

to be on the show and look forward to having you back.

Joe: Thanks Trent.

Trent: To get access to the show notes for today’s episode, head over

to And if you run a marketing agency and you’d like to

get access to the 2013 Bright Ideas Marketing Agency Industry Report, head

over to And finally if you’re looking for some

really smart traffic generations strategies head over to and enter your email address and you’ll be

given free access to the Bright Ideas massive traffic tool kit, which is a

compilation of all the very best traffic generation ideas that have been

shared with me by the guests on Bright Ideas. I’m Trent Dyrsmid, I’m your

host and this wraps up this episode.

If you enjoyed it, please head over to iTunes and leave a five star

rating along with your feedback comments. Thank you so much. We’ll see you

in another episode of the Bright Ideas podcast soon. Take care.

Recording: Thanks very much for listening to the Bright Ideas podcast.

Check us out on the web at

About Joe Pulizzi


Joe Pulizzi is a leading author, speaker and strategist for content marketing. Joe is first and foremost a content marketing evangelist, and founded the Content Marketing Institute (a division of Z Squared Media, a 2012 Inc 500 Company), which includes the largest in-person content marketing event, Content Marketing World, as well as Chief Content Officer magazine, the leading magazine for content marketers. Joe is also co-author of  Get Content Get Customers (McGraw-Hill), recognized as THE handbook for content marketing, as well as Managing Content Marketing: The Real-World Guide for Creating Passionate Subscribers to Your Brand.

Awarded “Custom Media Innovator of the Year” by American Business Media, Voted Who’s Who in Media Business by BtoB Magazine, Folio: 40, and recognized as the Most Influential Content Strategist via Lavacon,  Joe travels around North America and Europe  talking to marketers and business owners about how they are indeed publishers, and what they need to do about it.

Joe writes one of the most popular content marketing blogs in the world and is overly passionate about the color orange.

Links Mentioned

Digital Marketing Strategy: How to Launch a Podcast and Get 100,000 Downloads a Month with John Dumas

Have you ever thought about launching your own podcast but aren’t sure where to start?

Would you like to build a reputation as a thought leader in your niche?

In this episode of the Bright Ideas podcast, I’m joined by John Dumas of and in this interview you are going to hear John and I discuss:

  • why he started his show
  • his monetization plan
  • what he did to achieve 100,000 downloads a month so fast
  • how he got his explainer video produced
  • how he finds and recruits his guests
  • how he hosts his show
  • how he creates feeder podcasts to massively boost his exposure in the iTunes store
  • which parts of his business he outsources
  • his favorite tool for getting options from video
  • which tools he uses to record and edit his show
  • and so much more..

More About This Episode

The Bright Ideas podcast is the podcast for business owners and marketers who want to discover how to use online marketing and sales automation tactics to massively grow their business.

It’s designed to help marketing agencies and small business owners discover which online marketing strategies are working most effectively today – all from the mouths of expert entrepreneurs who are already making it big.

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Leave some feedback:

Connect with Trent Dyrsmid:


Trent: Hey there, Bright Idea Hunters, welcome to the Bright Ideas

podcast. I’m your host Trent Dyrsmid, and this is the podcast for business

owners and entrepreneurs who want to know how to use online marketing and

sales automation tactics to massively boost their business. And to make

that happen, I bring interesting, smart, experienced guests on the show.

And on the show with me today is a fellow by the name of John, and I hope I

pronounce this correctly, is is Dumas?John: Dumas.Trent: Dumas, Dumas. All right.John: Right. I want to make sure you got it.Trent: John is the guy behind Entrepreneur on Fire, and he is also an

ex-serviceman, so maybe he’ll tell us a little bit more about that when I

hand it over to him here in a second, so John, welcome to the show.

John: Thanks, Trent, excited to be here.

Trent: So for folks who don’t know who you are yet, maybe you can tell

us a little bit who are you and what you do, what’s all this Entrepreneur

on Fire thing all about.

John: Sure, I’ll give you the quick background. Do you want me to go who I

am, or just Entrepreneur on Fire?

Trent: Oh no, no, no, who you are first.

John: So grew up in Southern Maine for the first 18 years of my life, then

I went to Providence College on an ROTC scholarship, where I spent four

years as a cadet and student. Then I graduated 2002 at 22, and was

immediately commissioned as a second lieutenant in the US Army, where I

spent the next four years as an active duty officer. Highlighted by a 13

month tour of duty in Iraq as an armor platoon leader, which means I was in

charge of four tanks and sixteen men, in Fallujah, Ar Ramadi, in Habbaniyah

[sounds like 2:03]. And in 2006, my active duty component was over, so I

entered the Reserves, and spent the next four years, a bunch of that time I

was traveling in Guatemala, India, and Nepal.

Then I started to get serious, and I started law school, but that

wasn’t exactly for me, so I jumped ship after one semester and got into

finance, corporate finance with John Hancock in Boston, which was great for

a couple years. Then I moved into an internet startup company in New York

City, which was a very good experience for about six months, until that


So then I decided to take off for the Gold Coast out in California,

San Diego specifically, where I spent a couple years out there as a

residential real estate guy, and then I moved back to Maine, almost two

years ago now, to take a job as a commercial broker with a local firm here

in Maine. So it’s my first return back to Maine after being gone for 13

years after I graduated high school, so it’s kind of a cool homecoming. And

I spent a year as a commercial real estate broker, but then just in June of

2012, I’ve really kind of had my own entrepreneurial aha moment. I was

driving around, realizing there was a niche that needed to be filled, so I

turned in my paperwork in June of that year, and started Entrepreneur on


Trent: Very cool. So I get, the reason that I wanted to have you on

this show is, I get a lot of people that e-mail me to say, you know, like,

‘I want to start my own show? How do I start my own show? What’s involved?

I like this interview model.’ and I thought, rather than explain myself,

I’d bring somebody else on who is doing the same thing as me. So we’re

going to get down and dirty, and I’m going to ask all the tough questions,

because I know there is a whole bunch of people who want answers to, you

know, ‘Is this a viable business? Can you make any money doing this, and

how do you set it up, and how do you get it going?’ So first off, are you

making any money yet?

John: Making some money, it’s not enough to retire early, but there is a

pretty steady stream of income coming in through different areas, such as

affiliate, and different sponsorships I’ve been setting up.

Trent: Okay.

John: So you definitely can make money in this, but not something that you

can just turn on on day one.

Trent: Correct. It does not happen overnight. So anyone who thinks you

can start your own podcast to make money in your first month, probably not.

I mean, you might make some money, of course, but probably not the most

realistic goal. You really need to have kind of a longer term view and a

longer term strategy, and I’m happy to share what mine is, but I’m curious

as to what yours is. Before we talk about, you know, how you create the

episodes and all that stuff. What is your monetization plan? Because you

don’t do this without a monetization plan.

John: You don’t. One reason why I really believe I was able to jump on the

scene with Entrepreneur on Fire, and so quickly gain such a large audience

and a large following is for a number of reasons, but one of those being

that there is a niche that needs to be filled. That niche was, Entrepreneur

on Fire is the only daily podcast that interviews today’s most inspiring

successful entrepreneurs. I knew that there was a lot of people out there

like myself, who are driving to work, who are exercising daily, that who

just really love and enjoy a fresh podcast, waiting for them every morning

when they woke up, so Entrepreneur on Fire was officially launched on

September of 2012, I had 40 episodes backlogged to make sure I was ready

for it. Since then it’s grown to garnering over 100,000 downloads every

single month in over 100 countries, and one reason I believe I was able to

jump into that niche so quickly is getting some monetization aspect of this

is that there’s no real clear path for a podcast to monetize.

It comes from with what you do with that podcast, which is grow an

audience, and actually today an Entrepreneur on Fire, MJ DeMarco of the

Fastlane Millionaire, his interview on my show went live, and his quote

that I really took, back when I interviewed him a couple months ago, it

really adds one of the major driving visions of Entrepreneur on Fire, is

that if you want to make millions, you need to inspire millions. And

literally if you look at my tagline on iTunes or Stitcher Radio for

Entrepreneur on Fire, right at the bottom my tagline is, Inspiring

Millions, because that is the goal of Entrepreneur on Fire, is to inspire

millions, and then everything else as far as monetization, I know, will

fall into place from that. And one reason for me, I was very fortunate with

some of my past business successes, I didn’t need to monetize Entrepreneur

on Fire from day one, and I haven’t really tried to do that. I’ve really

just been trying to build the highest quality, best podcast possible,

knowing that my audience, and the growth of it, will lead to bigger and

better things.

Trent: Very true, very true. So 100,000 a month within a couple of

months, that’s an awful lot of downloads. Was there anything particular

that you, aside from creating really great content that people love to

hear, and aside from producing an episode every single day, we’re going to

talk more about the behind the scene mechanics of that in a bit. Is there

anything else that you did that you think contributed to such a high volume

of downloads in a relatively short period of time?

John: I really subscribe to Michael Hyatt’s philosophy in his book that

came out recently called Platform, and so I really focused back in June

when I was starting. I just wasn’t going to start recording episodes and

then launching them, I really wanted to make sure I had my platform in

place. So I made sure that all of my social media was squared away, my

website was squared away, everything was ready, so that once Entrepreneur

on Fire went live as a podcast, people saw that it just wasn’t an interview

show, but it was an actual viable business, it really had all the blocks


And I actually have three full-time virtual assistants who help run

Entrepreneur on Fire, each of them are working 40 hours a week in different

capacities, one is my social media manager, another girl does all my admin

and designs, and another girl literally works 40 hours a week doing all the

transcribing of the podcast. So I really built this entire platform, so

that once people saw what Entrepreneur on Fire was all about, and they saw

that my pledge was to come with a daily podcast, and they saw the backing

platform behind it, they trusted that. And they began to know like and

trust me and my brand that I was building, and that just keeps them coming

back on a daily basis, which really keeps those download numbers steady and

a snowball effect, as more and more people are learning about it every

single day.

Trent: Now do you give a particular call to action in each one of your

episodes, do you think that causes any type of viralocity, you ask people

to go to the iTunes store and give the show a rating, there must, because I

know I have a certain call to action, and anyone who listens to my show

knows what it is, I don’t need to explain it here again, it will be at the

end, just listen.

John: I have called to actions in every intro and every outro. I have

changed throughout my show. I now have, as of today, 94 episodes have gone

live, and again, that goes up by one every single day, literally, I’ve done

over 150, in total now, that are in the, quote/unquote, queue, and I do

change up my call to actions, because I really have different messages that

I want to get across to my audience as my business grows, and as I develop

different products or different services.

So I’m always changing my intros and outros, but they always do have

that call to action, and a consistent one definitely is a rating and review

in iTtunes, or a favorite and a like in Stitcher, and because of that,

Entrepreneur on Fire has over 200 five star rating in iTunes, which is an

incredibly high number for such a young podcast, especially if you compare

it to some other podcasts that’s been out for years, that haven’t focused

on that, and therefore don’t have nearly as many.

Trent: So you mentioned Stitcher, and I have to confess, this is the

first I have ever heard of Stitcher . . .

John: What?

Trent: . . . so why don’t you tell us what that is, yeah?

John: Stitcher Radio is the savior for all podcasters. They are taking

podcasting to the next level on every single level. I just got back from

New Media Expo by Blogworld in Las Vegas, where I was asked to speak on the

podcasting track, on the state of podcasting, and about Entrepreneur on

Fire specifically. But one area that I did focus on, and they were there

representing themselves, was Stitcher Radio, who have, if you go to

Stitcher, I think it’s, or maybe, they have

. . .


John: . . ., like the best app of 2012, and all they do are

stream podcasts. You don’t need to download, it’s just streaming, but their

sole focus is on podcast, and the podcasting state in general, and the most

exciting thing they’d done, Trent, they’ve actually inked deals with Ford,

with BMW, with Chevrolet. Stitcher Radio is going into the dashboard of

these cars in 2013, so just like SiriusXM Radio, you can just turn to that

dial, you can do this thing now with Stitch Radio and go to Entrepreneur on

Fire, and go to Bright Ideas, and have that streaming in your car radio, no

longer porting your little iPod to your car, tuning your FM station, or

plugging into your outlet.

Trent: Very cool, you can bet I will be signing up for Stitcher very


John: They’re amazing.

Trent: Now to upload to Stitcher, like I use a plugin Blueberry that

automatically, just as soon as I publish a post containing an audiofile,

puts it up to iTunes for me, it’s very painless. Is there a similar plugin

to upload your stuff to Stitcher?

John: You give them your RSS feed, the same one that you have, and it’s


Trent: Nice, okay, easy as pie.

John: Yep.

Trent: All right. So let’s talk a little bit about some more of the

nuts and bolts, some things that I want to know the answers to. So you have

a pretty decent explainer video on your site, and for people who don’t know

what an explainer video is, go to, and you’ll find

the explainer video. It basically explains what the show is all about. I

like your explainer video, where did you get that done?

John: Thank you. I worked very hard on that, because back in June of 2012,

just when I was starting, I was at the prior New Media Expo, which was in

New York City, and there was a speech by Jason Van Houten about coming up

with your avatar, your target audience, who do you really want to be

speaking to with your business, with your brand. So I came back from that

and say, you know, I really want to build who I think I’m speaking to as

Entrepreneur on Fire, as a founder and host, of this podcast. So I went out

and I found a company, and they’re called that’s the name of

the website, and Priscilla, specifically, became my point of contact, and

we developed a script with complete visuals, voice overs, music, it

explained exactly who Entrepreneur on Fire was speaking to, and for me it

was this guy who I call ‘Jimmy’. And Jimmy was a guy that woke up in the

morning, who’s about to drive to work, he hated to drive because the radio

was horrible with Miley Cyrus and talk radio, he just couldn’t figure it

out, there are so many commercials. But then he found Entrepreneur on Fire,

and his commute to work and his daily exercise regimen just took a turn for

the better, because now he is consuming this passionate, motivational,

inspirational content, and it showed kind of his journey, after he found

Entrepreneur on Fire, climbing the mountain of success, and then driving

off into the sunset of inspiration, so to speak, so it was a really fun

video to make. It’s 60 seconds long, and it really helped me nail down who

I wanted to speak to. It was a lot of fun doing it, and I think it’s a big

help for people that kind of land on my site, not really knowing why they

did or what Entrepreneur on Fire really is all about, in 60 seconds it

really sums it up quite well.

Trent: And how much did you have to spend to get it made?

John: It was $3,500.

Trent: Okay. Now I imagine you probably get analytics on the drop-off

rate of that video, and I’m curious because I use a self-recorded, you

know, me in front of the camera video, and I don’t, one of the questions I

don’t have the answer to, because I look at my drop-off rate, and, you

know, it kind of goes down and then tapers off like most every other video

I’ve ever produced, and what I can’t figure out, because I get most of my

opt-ins from the home page, is A, does the video suck so badly that people

don’t want to watch it? or B, or is it so good they’re opting in before

it’s over? So with your . . .

John: You know, it’s probably the prior, but I can tell you what, have you

ever heard of LeadPlayer?

Trent: LeadPlayer? I’ve heard of it, I’ve never used it.

John: So my buddy Clay Collins developed LeadPlayer, which is incredible,

so you can use LeadPlayer on your website, and above, whenever you find

that drop-off rate starting, right before that drop-off rate, you can have

a pop opt-in box, and that will increase your conversions hundreds and

hundreds of percent.

Trent: Does that only work with You-tube videos, or does that work

with any video?

John: So it works with, I’m pretty sure it works with any video, but how it

works is it’s actually a widget on WordPress, as you download into your

WordPress, and then it streams through YouTube on your site, and you can

customize everything about when that pop in, when that pop up, coming up,

etc, whatever, and what it says, and I think that they do integrate with

Vimeo and some others, I’m not positive, but YouTube for sure.

Trent: Yeah, well, it’s easy enough to change the video place holder

and put a YouTube video instead of my [inaudible 16:26].

John: Well, you should have it on YouTube anyways, because that’s the place

that, you know, people can just, can be searching for Trent, or for Bright

Ideas, and they come across that video, that should be available on YouTube

as well.

Trent: Yeah. Now I notice that you don’t do audio, or at least that I

was able to find, you only do, sorry, you don’t do video of your interviews

like I do, you only do audio, is there a reason for that, production cost?

John: Well, the reason for that really right now is because the focus of

Entrepreneur on Fire is just to produce a daily audio podcast for that

avatar, for that person who is driving to work, or just running along the

boardwalk, or walking their dog. However, I know the power of video, it is

something I absolutely want to integrate into Entrepreneur on Fire, and I’m

still like putting together the pieces, and giving my assistants more

[inaudible 17:16], or if I have the time to be able to set something like

this up, so you are definitely going to be seeing video become a major part

of Entrepreneur on Fire in the future.

Trent: Okay. All right. What’s next on my list, how do you find your


John: That is a very consistent question that I get, because especially

doing a daily podcast, I have people saying, ‘John, you are going to get

burnt out, you are going to run out of guests, you are going to burn out

your audience members’ and I kept getting this over and over again, and

none of this has come to fruition for a number of reasons. For one, when

people like look at me as doing a daily podcast, I literally do, it’s a

very taxing day, and I work really hard, and I’m very exhausted by the end

of it, but I do 8 to 10 interviews every single Monday, and that’s it. I do

nothing else the rest of the week when it comes to recording and editing my

podcast. So yes, it’s one very painful and long day, but I have Tuesday

through Friday, Saturday and Sunday if I’m working on the weekends, to do

all the other aspects of my business, and to rest and to recuperate, so

there’s been anything but burnout on my end.

And as far as finding guests, I literally have such a long list of

guests that I still want to reach out to, in the thousands, literally,

every time I get my Entrepreneur, Inc., or Fast Company Magazine, I’m

overwhelmed by the amount of people that I want to have on my show, every

time I watch Shark Tank, I get multiple e-mails every single day from

entrepreneurs themselves, or from PR firms, promoting their entrepreneur or

their client to be on Entrepreneur on Fire, just because, again, they’re

reaching an incredibly massive audience over, now as of, literally the last

couple of weeks, Entrepreneur on Fire has been downloaded at over 5,000

downloads every single day. So we’re more like a 120,000 clip for the

course of a month, again, in a hundred countries.

So I’m just getting inundated with people reaching out to me, and

just me seeing people out there in the universe, there’s an endless supply,

I just gave a ton of resources that I do currently use on another really

great one that I don’t utilize, because I just don’t YouTube, but I know

it’s there if I ever need to for whatever reason, it’s called Haro, H-A-R-

O, .com, Help a Reporter Out. And that is, I know Trent you said you don’t

what a, that is will be just the listeners that may not, you can literally

post a query. Like a month ago, I launched another podcast called The Great

Business Experiment. Kickstarter, where I interview ten successful

Kickstarter campaigners, and we talked about their kickstart in campaigns,

and what made it successful, and the failures that they had, and what they

would do differently if they could. And it was so easy for me to find these

10 people, they ran Successful Kickstarter Campaigns after I came up with

the idea for The Great Business Experiment Kickstarter, because I just

hosted this query on Haro that said, ‘This is what I’m doing, this is what

I’m looking for, I would love to hear from you.’ And I got 30 e-mails

within an hour of all great candidates, of which I cut it down to ten,

reached out to them, scheduled ten interviews for one day, recorded all ten

interviews, had the podcast up and live two days later, and it ran for,

well it’s now on its sixth or seventh week as a podcast, still number one

in the iTtunes new and noteworthy section, just getting a ton of downloads

and getting a lot of exposure to my brand, and to Entrepreneur on Fire as

well, which is my feeder podcast. So there’s a plethora of ways to get

quality people for any industry, so that’s a great hint for listeners that

are looking for gardeners, or scuba divers, or cat lovers.

Trent: Yeah, in the entrepreneur space, just think about how many

companies are being started every year. You could do ten interviews a day

and never run out of people, it is endless. I am so far behind in the

number of interviews that I’ve recorded versus the number I need to

publish. It’s not a problem, trust me, finding guests is not a difficult

thing to do.

John: But it’s everybody’s biggest fear when they start.

Trent: Yeah. So you mentioned this other podcast, are you planning on

continuing to produce episodes for both of these podcasts on an ongoing


John: No. So Entrepreneur on Fire will continue to be a daily podcast, the

Great Business Experiment Kickstarter was just a series of ten podcasts

that I’ve released, that’s now number one in the iTunes New and Noteworthy

section, which is by far the best real estate in the entire iTunes podcast

store. So that podcast will run for eight weeks, it will remain in that

unbelievable real estate at the top of iTunes New and Noteworthy, where my

intro says, ‘If you like this series of podcasts, absolutely check out

Entrepreneur on Fire, which is my daily show.’ At the end of those eight

weeks, I’m going to come out with another Great Business Experiment, which

is going to be The Dark Side of Groupon, where I’ve interviewed ten

companies that have horrible Groupon experiences, some of which lost their

companies because of it, and then that will run for eight weeks. And again,

eight weeks trend is the time frame that I use, because that’s the longest

you can be in iTunes New and Noteworthy, then you drop off into the abyss

of the thousands and thousands of podcasts that are there, so you can

really take advantage of the eight weeks you launch your podcast, to have

this incredible real estate, boom, people first log into iTunes, there’s

your podcast, and for me, I’m using it as a way for people to get great

content, but also find out about Entrepreneur on Fire.

Trent: Now I got into the New and Noteworthy section with Bright

Ideas, I honestly don’t have a clue what I did to get there. Do you have a

specific, repeatable strategy, because I’d love to hear it.

John: So it’s not difficult at all to get into the iTunes New and

Noteworthy. They allow the top 100 new podcasts, which means for iTunes

less than eight months from the published date, are considered new and

noteworthy, and they publish, or they promote the top 100 for those eight

weeks. There are really, really few podcasts that come out on a daily

basis, and especially there are really few, very serious podcasts that come

out on a very consistent basis, so it’s extremely easy to, A, get into the

New and Noteworthy, and then B, once you get there, you are literally in

the best real estate of the iTunes store. So people are searching, going to

the iTunes store to organically look for content, and they’re finding you,

and they’re subscribing, and that’s just kind of continuing the snowball


So the way to do it, is when you launch your podcast, you want to

launch with a minimum of three podcasts on day one. If you’re going to do a

weekly show, you need to launch with three podcasts, and then explain in

the intro, that you will be coming out with a weekly podcast every Friday,

every Tuesday, whenever it is. But right now you have three to begin, and

then form this point forth, this is going to be your consistency. And then

you need to reach out to everybody to your list, to your friends, to your

family, in the intro of these podcasts, and say, listen, I really need you

guys to take a second and to rate and review this specific podcast, because

the iTunes algorithm is number of downloads, ratings, and reviews, and

subscribers. So when you have three podcasts, someone is much more likely

to, ‘subscribe’, because they’re going to see three, than if they’re just

seeing one, they’re just going to press the play button and listen to that

one, and not become a subscriber. And then there’s also a math equation in

there. If you have a hundred downloaders in the first week of one podcast,

that’s one hundred. But if you have three up there, everybody presses the

‘download all’, just because there’s a button right there, makes it simple,

you’re going to have 300 downloads, and then you’re going to organically

move up in the rankings because of that, with your ratings and reviews,

helping you out as well, and people are going to find you, and your

snowball effect is going to continue to bring you up to the front, and

that’s exactly the methodology I used for the Great Business Experiment,


Trent: So you’re, it sounds like then you’re planning on every eight

weeks to launch another podcast, just to get this piece of real estate to

use it as a feeder podcast for your main show.

John: Absolutely.

Trent: And when you do that, because you need an RSS feed, do you just

do like a new domain and a basic WordPress install as a place to give you a

feed, and you don’t really build out the site because you’re not thinking

people are going to go there, or how much of that periphery do you work on?

John: I use, L-I-B-S-Y-N .com, which is short for short for

Liberated Syndication, as my media host. I host all of my media there for

Entrepreneur on Fire, and for The Great Business Experiment, Kickstarter. I

only copy the download link from Libsyn and post it in Blueberry, the

PowerPress, of my widgets, so I don’t host anything on, it’s all hosted through Libsyn. So when I published

a new podcast, I just start a new RSS feed, a new podcast within the Libsyn

community, and then publish that RSS feed to iTunes, to Stitcher Radio, so

it’s all within Libsyn, it has nothing to do with my website.

Trent: Okay, so the blueberry plugin has really nothing to do with

starting these extra episodes, or the new show, it’s just all within the

confines of Libsyn. Libsyn gives you the RSS feed, and then you publish to

Stitcher and iTunes.

John: Absolutely.

Trent: Saves a lot of work, you don’t have to build a site, you don’t

have to register another domain, branding, logos, all that other stuff.

John: Exactly.

Trent: Well there it is, there’s Trent’s golden nugget right there,

love getting the golden nugget in the show, that is. Fantastic, thank you

for that.

All right, I want to ask you now, so which gets more traffic at this

point, your website or your podcast in terms of downloads in iTunes?

John: So Entrepreneur on Fire is getting between 4,000 to 5,000 downloads

every single day, just from the iTunes Store. Stitcher Radio has their own

set of statistics, which you’ll find very interesting, Trent, because

they’re extremely specific. You can see the average time per listen, what

percentage people are dropping off at, the percentage of people that

actually start and finish pod, they have incredible statistics at Stitcher

Radio. And Entrepreneur on Fire is a really good way to look at exactly

what just a podcast can do for a website, because I have nothing else.

Entrepreneur on Fire is just the headquarters for my podcast, Entrepreneur

on Fire, and my website right now is getting about 600 unique visitors

every single day to it, and that’s solely being driven from Entrepreneur on

Fire, the podcasts.

Trent: Yeah, that’s kind of what I thought, because my downloads are

far, far, far higher in iTunes than they are on the website themselves. All

right, so do you find then that you’re having success in converting, like

how big is your list, your subscriber list so far? Because that’s a key

part of monetization. If you don’t have a list, it’s really difficult to


John: That needs to be everybody’s first step, is when they’re building a

platform, they have right, front, and center, there call to action on their

website, is a great giveaway, or a great reason for somebody to subscribe

to their e-mail list. Entrepreneurs on Fire had a very average one for

about the first three months of my site, just when I got back from New

Media Expo, I was collaborating with some people out there like Pat Flim,

Jaime Tardy of Eventual Millionaires, some other people in that area, and

they gave me a great idea to publish an ebook of the top ten insights from

the top ten Entrepreneur on Fire interviewees. So I created this ebook that

features Barbara Corcoran, Tim Ferriss, Pat Flynn, Chris Grogan, Seth

Goden, Gary Vaynerchuk, people who I’ve had on my show, who have given

great insights to Fire Nation, and I’ve condensed it into ebook, and now

right at the front center of my website, you see that, one of the first

things you see is join Fire Nation and receive my ebook. And so, before

that, I was getting pretty much between 15 to 25 e-mail subscribers every

single day, which was great, because I did have a good giveaway. But since

I’ve done that, and really mean a great giveaway, I’m getting over 30 e-

mail subscribers, and sometimes it’s into the forties and fifties every

single day, which has grown my e-mail subscriber list in just over three

and a half months, to about 1,200 plus subscribers.

Trent: Nice, very nice. All right, now you also have, we’re kind of

going back to monetization here, because these are all just questions that

I want answers to. You’ve got this coaching button, anybody buying those

coaching packages off you?

John: Yep, so again, when I started Entrepreneur on Fire, it was all about

focusing on building a leverage-able scalable business in a brand,

Entrepreneur on Fire, that was going to reach millions of people. So I’m

not in the business of trading time for dollars, that’s never been

something I’ve wanted to do, and because of my past successes in business,

it’s not something I have to do currently. So I accepted four people to be

coached by myself, and just actually this past January, one spot opened up,

which is why I reopened that coaching slot, but it’s actually already been

filled, so I need to close it back down now. So I have four people who I do

mentor on an ongoing monthly basis, so that is one way that I’m really kind

of engaging with my target audience, and really learning, from my aspect,

exactly what their pains and struggles are, so I can continue to provide

products and services for Fire Nation as a whole. But yeah, coaching is not

a focus, it’s not an area that I’m going into anymore than I already am in,

and just been enjoyable interacting, you know, one on one basis, on a

limited level, where the Fire Nation dance.

Trent: And what type of people are these people who are signing up for

coaching? Are they people who aspire to have a show, or are they business

owners that are looking to gain insight into growing an existing business?

John: Three of the people are looking to produce their own podcasts, I’m

giving them a lot of assistance there. One person is not really

specifically looking for a podcast anytime soon, but they’re going to be

having a blog and things along those lines, and they don’t currently have a

business, but they’re looking to become an entrepreneur, and to start their

first business.

Trent: Okay. So let’s go and talk about your virtual assistants, and

your post production process, because I’m curious as to how yours may be

similar or different than mine. Mine, I’ll explain very quickly, it’s

pretty darn easy. I use GoToMeeting, which we’re in right now, HDFaces,

which is, I think, about a hundred bucks a month for this piece of

software. I record the screen with ScreenFlow, I have a pre-roll and a post-

roll that I got off of Fiverr, so as soon as I’m done the episodes,

ScreenFlow saves the media file, I drop in my pre-roll and my post-roll as

soon as I’m done the interview, I do my little call to action, and I can

literally have the, and so then I save it all, I peel out the Mp3, that

goes into garage brand, because I put a different pre-roll and post-roll

for my audio file than I do for my video file, because video is visual,

audio is obviously for your ears, and I can have all of that stuff done

completely two versions, video and audio, edited and ready for upload in

about 20 minutes. And I was going to have a VA do that, but because I’m on

a Mac platform, most VA overseas don’t use Macs, which was going to

introduce a whole layer of extra complexity. Because they all a .mov file,

and ScreenFlow, you would have to actually export it, and then upload it to

Dropbox, and then they could down . . . by the time I’ve messed around with

all that, it was just quicker to edit it myself. How’s it different for

you, or how is it similar for you?

John: So what I use is Adobe Audition in Skype. So every single Monday

morning, my interview start a 8:00 a.m., and I have between 8:00 to 10:00,

running every 75 minutes. So somebody will call in, or I will call somebody

via Skype, I’m going to have Adobe Audition, which is the recording

software that I use, up and ready to receive. I have my little pre-chat

intro, and then I literally hit the record button, and then we’re talking

for the next 25 to 35 minutes, recording directly into Adobe Audition,

through Skype, and then when it’s done I’m hitting the stop button, and

then I’m actually just exporting that, as what’s called an SESX file, it’s

a session file, and I’m saving that for the future, because again, I’m

actually at a two month buffer right now, so I’m not immediately converting


Then at the end of that Monday, I do have these eight to ten

interviews that are complete, and I do personally go back, because at this

point, I’m just very conscious of releasing only the highest quality audio

and the best possible show that I can, so I do go back, and if there is any

talking over each other, I record on a separate tracks so I can take that

out, any excessive ums and ahs, or background noise, I can silence out, and

I make it a really tight, clean, audio version of it, save it once again as

a final SESX file, and then I just store it Dropbox for when I get to that

point, a week or two out, for when that show is going to go live. Then I

take it back out, whatever my intro and outro was going to be at that time,

whatever call to actions I’ve decided that I want to use at that specific

date, I will implement, convert it into an Mp3, upload it with the artwork

and all these show notes, and the titles, etc, to Libsyn, and schedule its

release. And so right now I have the next ten episodes are scheduled to be

released on Libsyn at 3:00 a.m. every single morning, so I can literally go

to Tahiti for ten days and come back, and each one of those ten episodes

will automatically release, corresponding with Entrepreneur on Fire where I

have show notes up every page, going be published at 3:00 a.m. the exact

same time. So as soon as that podcast is released from Libsyn to go live to

Stitcher and iTunes, and Zune Radio, which is Microsoft, my blog is also

being released and going live on my website.

Trent: And you have to schedule Libsyn, and you have to schedule your

post in WordPress, the two don’t, one does not talk to the other, there is

no sync there, is there?

John: No, they do not talk to each other.

Trent: Okay. It’s interesting that you delay the, it’s a good idea,

actually, that you delay the final editing, so you know what the call to

action is going to be, because you have that buffer, and that’s a good idea

for me, because I’ve been putting them in the can right away, as soon as

I’m done, because I use a fairly standard call to action at the end, and it

doesn’t allow me the flexibility to know what I might want to talk about

at, closer to when that episode is going to publish, so I might have to

switch up my strategy a little bit.

Now with Adobe Audition, that piece of software runs on Mac or PC?

John: Yes.

Trent: Okay, so that helps with the, if you want to outsource, most

outsourcers using PCs, so you wouldn’t have the issue that I have in using

ScreenFlow. There was one other question I wanted to ask you, and now it’s

slipped away into oblivion, so hopefully it will pop back into my mind a

little later on. Oh yeah, when you replay, I mean, you got eight episodes

that you’re doing on a Monday, and you’re going to listen to them all again

to remove ums and ahs? For folks that are only listening to the audio

version of this, and you didn’t see the image of John basically just held

his fingers to his head like a pistol, and more or less metaphorically said

he’s crazy, which I agree. You’re out of your mind, man, that’s way too

much work.

John: I am, although I will have to be honest on one point, is that I

really am a big believer in keeping it as natural and the conversation

flowing as possible. So my Entrepreneur on Fire audio podcasts typically

run about 25% of me talking, and 75% of my guest talking, on average. It

differs, some’s 80/20, some’s 70/30, what have you. I pretty much just keep

whatever my guest is saying, completely normal. Most of my guests are very

well-spoken, they know what they’re doing. What I’m mostly doing is going

through my audio because for one, it really improves me as an interviewer

and as a speaker, to hear myself speak, and to see the little ums, ahs,

ands, so’s that I’m really saying, and these maybe repetitive words like

awesome, or wicked, cool, because I’m from Maine, you know, things along

those lines that, you know, things that just really crop up again, and

again, so that improves my self-speaking, and it’s only about 25% of that

30 minute audio. And another thing that I really just do is sometimes you

ask questions, and I tell my interviewees take as long as they want to

think of an answer, so it’s normally not that long, maybe it’s five, six

seconds. That kind of sounds like a lot of dead air when you’re listening

to it in the car, so I can just very quickly, it’s called a ripple delete,

it just zips those right together so it almost seems like a seamless

answer. So I would say each time I do an interview, and I’m editing that

interview, it probably takes me 20 minutes to do a complete edit, which is

still a significant amount of time, when you’re realizing that I’m doing

eight of these in one day. But it’s not like I’m sitting there listening to

the entire interview, I’m really skipping over those big chunks, of when my

guests are giving these long, great answers, I’m not listening to that at


Trent: You’re the only one that I have talked to in our space that

does that. I don’t think Jaime does that, I know Andrew over at Mixergy, I

know he doesn’t do that, because I’ve been on the show, and he’s like

super, super minimal on what he does, they don’t even put links to their

website’s guest on the actual post, sorry, yeah.

John: Most people are very proud about the fact that they don’t edit, and I

am very proud of the fact that I produce the highest quality podcast on a

daily basis that I can possible do.

Trent: Yeah. Well, good on you, because we all got to have our

differentiators, right?

John: Yeah.

Trent: All right. So last three questions. What are you most excited

about for 2013?

John: Podcasting. Like I said, I went to New Media Expo in June as a, well,

as an attendee, I guess is the best word, and attended all the podcasting

tracks in New York City, and it was good, but there wasn’t really that much

excitement, and I was fortunate enough to be to attend New Media Expo in

Las Vegas this past January of 2013 as a speaker. I don’t know, if you

wave, if you wanted me to . . .

Trent: No, no, there’s a fly flying around my mouth, and I’m trying to

swat the damn thing away.

John: In the podcasting track, see I would have edited that out, incredibly

smoothly, in my podcast, but it’s a kind of a cute little thing (?)

Trent: I won’t bother. I won’t bother.

John: And the podcasting tracks were packed. There were hundreds of people

at my speech, as a new podcaster, whereas is I was going with some of the

bigger podcasters six moths prior, and there was 22 people in the room, so

there is this certain buzz that’s going on about podcasting, people are

just realizing the reach, the accessibility, the passion, the targeted

content, on demands, smartphones, tablets, Wi-Fi, they’re really seeing,

that both audio and video podcasting are just reaching an incredible amount

of people. I mean, a show, which is why I’m really excited to get into

video later on this year, is because now people can literally be looking

down at their smartphone on a train, and there’s great Wi-Fi, so they can

be streaming this video, without, you know, having to rely on 3G or 4G,

which probably would be a little choppy. It’s just really exciting where

that’s going, and the expanse that is happening. People are finding out for

the first time ever about podcasting every single day, and they’re falling

in love.

Trent: Yeah, yeah, I agree, I love it, I have no end of fun doing

these shows. I absolutely love having interesting guests on, having these

conversations, and they’re so easy to record and share, I think it’s a

wonderful medium. And now I’ll tell you, in my business life, never ever,

ever ever, did I think I’d be a talk show host.

John: Right, yeah, me neither. I mean, now, I had no experience.

Trent: No, definitely not. What books, or book, are you reading right


John: So I just interviewed Robert Greene, who wrote the books 48 Laws of

Power, and his most recent release is Mastery. I was an American Studies

Major in college, I love history, and this guy goes back and talks about

the most historical figures . . .

Trent: Does he ever.

John: . . . of our world, I’m talking, you know, the Napoleons, the

Edisons, the Benjamin Franklins, you name it, it gives you a different

angle on these people’s lives that you can’t get in biographies or from

history books, and pulls out incredible life and business lessons. I love

his writing, he’s the most in-depth serious writer, I think, of our

generation in a lot of ways, and I can’t get enough of him. I love him.

Trent: I was stunned at what a dick Ben Franklin was. He, nobody liked

that guy, at least not initially.

John: He was just too serious, in like a real quick story, that Robert

tells that Benjamin Franklin went over to London to work in a press, and

they always had this beer fund, because they would take five beer …

Trent: Yeah, that’s what I was referring to.

John: And Ben’s like, ‘I’m not going to pay, I don’t drink, I’m not going

to pay my meager salary for you guys to drink and waste your time, let’s

get some work done.’ And all of a sudden he started seeing all these errors

coming up in his work that he’d already proofed, and he realized a valuable

lesson in life, you need to just accept certain things and become, and join

the herd in certain areas, otherwise you’re going to be sabotaged.

Trent: Yeah, yeah, and that’s, it was an interesting read for sure.

For people that want to get in touch with you, what is the easiest and best

way to do it, Twitter, e-mail, or your website, which one?

John: is definitely my headquarters, that’s where

everything happens, all of my podcasts are aired there, all my social media

platforms are easily linked to there. I know the word entrepreneur is very

difficult to spell, so I actually also own the domain, which

will get you to my website, that’s a nice little short way of doing it. But

yeah, you can go there, check out the podcasts. You can go to iTunes and

just type in entrepreneur on fire, and you can subscribe to the podcast

right there, everything is very accessible, and I have everything linked up

on Entrepreneur on Fire for the home base, so that’s the first place I’d

say to go. And my e-mail is I love getting e-

mails, so go ahead.

Trent: There you go. Well all right, John, thank you so much for being

on the show. I learned some really good things, got to go get myself a

Stitcher account, maybe delay my editing a little bit so I can put in some

more time-sensitive calls to action. And I’m not using Libsyn, but I’m

going to check that out, because the New and Noteworthy, right, if

definitely, when I got new and noteworthy, my downloads really, really took

off . . .

John: Oh yeah.

Trent: . . . and continued to do so, though I don’t think I’m in New

and Noteworthy anymore, maybe I am, I haven’t actually checked.

John: Because you produce good content that people stuck with.

Trent: Yeah, and then that’s another thing too, by the way, if you’re

listening to this, and you’re thinking of starting a show, people will

write you if you do a good show, people will write you all the time to

thank you for doing these shows. I guess they perceive that this must be a

great deal of work, and I guess the dirty little secret is it’s really not

that hard, I actually find it much easier to produce content this way than

I do to sit out and write a blog post, I think for me that’s a lot of work.

So if you’re thinking about doing it, go for it. It’s a lot of fun, you’re

going to meet a lot of interesting people, it’s the best networking tool on

the planet, as I’m sure you know. I mean, we get to have one one one

conversations with all these thought leaders that charge insane amounts of

money for their time, and they do it for us for free, because it gives them

exposure as well, and I think that’s, another one of the reasons why I

think it’s such a fantastic medium to use in your business.

John: I’m having Suze Orman on my show.

Trent: How did you make that happen?

John: I will give you the e-mail of her POC.

Trent: Cool, because I’d like to have her on too.

John: And for your listeners, Trent, they should know that you are going to

be a guest on Entrepreneur on Fire, and we get to hear your journey as an

entrepreneur, your failures, your aha moment, what you’re excited about

right now, your vision for the future, and of course, I’m going to put you

through the lightning round wringer of five, incredible questions that are

going to produce nuggets of invaluable information.

Trent: I will say this, if you want to hear about my failures, you’re

going to need longer than 35 minutes. So you’re going to have to take your


John: Oh, love it.

Trent: All right, thanks so much for being on the show, John. It’s

been a pleasure.

John: Thank you Trent, it’s been great.

Trent: To get access to the show notes for today’s episode, head over

to Another URL that you’ll want to check out is traffic, enter your e-mail address and you’ll be

given free access to the massive traffic toolbox, which is a compilation of

all of the best traffic generation ideas that have been shared with me, by

my guests here on Bright Ideas. If you’re a marketing agency owner, and you

want to get access to the 2013 Marketing Agency Industry Report, head over

to report, that’s 2013 report.

So I’m your host, Trent Dyrsmid, that wraps up another episode of the

podcast. If you really enjoyed today’s podcast, please head over to the

iTunes store and leave a five star rating, and as well as some comments and

feedback. Every time you do that, it helps the show to get more exposure,

and the more people that become aware of the Bright Ideas podcast, the more

entrepreneurs that we can help to massively boost their business. Thanks

very much for tuning in, I’ll see you in a future episode. Take care.

Recording: Thanks very much for listening to the Bright Ideas podcast.
Check us out on the web at

About John Dumas

JohnDumasHeadshotJohn Lee Dumas is the Founder and Host of EntrepreneurOnFire, a daily podcast that interviews today’s most inspiring and successful Entrepreneurs. EntrepreneurOnFire tells the journey of the spotlighted guest, sharing their early failures, AHA! moments, and insight into what is working for them now and why. Every show ends with a 5-question “Lightning Round” that pulls priceless nuggets of information from these incredibly successful Entrepreneurs.


BI 027: How to Turn Your Blog into a $250,000 Business with Marcus Sheridan

Originally, the ‘pool guy’ behind River Pools and Spas, Marcus has become well known for both his success as a inbound marketer (his pool company is a lead generation machine) as well as the guy behind the popular blog, The Sales Lion. Here’s a short summary of his achievements:

  • Published 3 self-help books in 2001, 2003, and 2006
  • Started my swimming pool company, River Pools and Spas in 2001
  • Pool company grew to be one of the largest of its kind in the world (due to inbound marketing efforts and our incredibly popular swimming pool blog)
  • Because of huge success teaching other pool professionals how to embrace inbound marketing, has become a very successful HubSpot Partner, training inbound marketers  and companies everywhere how to find success.
  • With an incredibly entertaining and educational style, Sheridan has become a highly sought after speaker for many marketing and business conferences globally.

Listen to the Audio

Our Chat Today

  • why content marketing is such a big deal and how you are nuts if you don’t have a strategy in place
  • how to turn your blog into the wikiepedia of your niche
  • why understanding the content saturation index for your niche is so important
  • how he built relationships with the key players in his niche
  • how he transformed his blog into a money making machine that now earns over $250K a year
  • how a 20 minute speech changed everything (and how he got the opportunity to speak at this event)
  • what he did in his speech to blow the roof off
  • what kind of clients he’s attracting
  • what his sales cycle looks like
  • how much they pay him
  • how to build the speaking business into your business and the 3 different ways you can do it
  • and so much more….

Digital Marketing Strategy: How to Get the Attention of the Media: A Case Study with Jaime Tardy

Are you looking for a simple, yet effective method to getting more press coverage?

Would you like to hear from an entrepreneur who’s been on the home page of Yahoo as well as CNN?

To discover how to one entrepreneur has done exactly that, I interview Jaime Tardy in this episode of the Bright Ideas podcast.

More About This Episode

The Bright Ideas podcast is the podcast for business owners and marketers who want to discover how to use online marketing and sales automation tactics to massively grow their business.

It’s designed to help marketing agencies and small business owners discover which online marketing strategies are working most effectively today – all from the mouths of expert entrepreneurs who are already making it big.

In this episode, I interview Jaime Tardy of Eventual Millionaire.

Watch Now

Leave some feedback:

Connect with Trent Dyrsmid:


An Interview with Jamie TardyTrent Dyrsmid: Coming up in today’s episode, how do you make a 6 figure income by the age of 22 and then be $70,000 in debt by the age of 24 and then go on to have your story featured on CNN and on the homepage of Yahoo!? I guess she’s gonna share with us exactly how she did that. Imagine not being well-known, not having many contacts yet wanting to start a mastermind group with millionaires that wanted to participate in. Well, my guest did that as well. Or how about this? Have you wondered how to start building those really pivotal or powerful relationships that are gonna help you to succeed faster? Well, my guest did that as well. All of these and more so stay tuned.Hey everyone! My name is Trent Dyrsmid and I’m the founder of and on the show with me today is a blogger, interviewer, business coach, succeeding in all three, and a mom and a wife and her name is Jamie Tardy. And I got to tell you this has been one of the more fun interviews I’ve done in a long time so you’re really in for a treat. Please join me in welcoming Jamie to the show.Hi Jamie! Thank you so much for making some time to come on and do this interview with me. I’m really excited about our interview today because you’re an interviewer and I’m an interviewer and I’m sure that we’re gonna get to compare some interesting notes and hopefully the audience is gonna enjoy that process. So welcome to the show.Jamie Tardy: Thanks so much for having me Trent.T: So in my research on you, I made a couple of bullet points. I’m gonna throw this up so the audience has some idea of who you are and how you came to be an interviewer. So you did the college path, made 6 figures by 22, racked up a whole lot of debt I think about $70,000 in debt by 24, quit your job in 2007 and nearly failed as a blogger in the first 6 months I think. How am I doing?J: Well you tell me all that crappy stuff. Yes! Oh yeah, exactly right, perfect. Good research.T: So I wanna dive a little bit deeper into the psyche of Jamie because for me this interview like all the interviews that I do is the study of success. You have become a very successful online marketer. You got a lot of press for yourself. You’ve had speaking engagements. You’re building a solid reputation and we’re gonna dive in to how you did all of that. But before we get into that let’s just talk a little bit about so you went to college, you got the career thing and then you went “this isn’t working for me”. Kind of what happened back then?J: Yeah. Hopefully people will take this too because I know I felt really alone when I was in that point. And I know now of course I hear from tons of other people saying “oh I’m going to be that few things” but now it’s not a big deal. Now we’re lucky enough to have the people online telling their stories and stuff but then I did everything I was supposed to. I had a goal to be a millionaire, that was my whole thing since I was 8. I went to school. I know that’s kind of weird for me, a little girl, but I went to school and made lots of money, thought I was a success, I travelled around the US, had a really nice title, expense account, got really fat coz I ate out all the time.And so thereafter a few years of doing like “yeah I don’t like being called at 2:00 in the morning saying ‘oh this is broken, can you fix this right now?'” And I was like “oh this is all there is?” Actually one of the key turning points was a lot of my co-workers, I worked in a video on demand, so like when you go on TV you can order movies, right? And so we’re working I think like 40 hours in a row or something ridiculous where we were up for days. And one of my co-workers just like “you know, Jamie, you shouldn’t be so stressed. It’s not like we’re curing people.” I was like “yeah I’m helping people who don’t have to go to the video store to get real CDs.” Like yeah this was so sort of that whole like “what is my purpose here?” Was it really to help people get more movies online which don’t get me wrong, it was great but that wasn’t really what it was about.So that’s where the turning point of going “okay what am I actually doing with my life?” It’s not about the money so why am I here? And that was sort of the thing that I tipped.T: Okay so at that point in time you had this decision that is I would say the pivotal decision for so many people who make the transition to becoming an entrepreneur and most that don’t make it as the quitting. I mean some of them get a boot, they get laid off, they get fired and so the decision gets made for them which seems really crappy at the time but those that make the transition in hindsight always go “hey that was awesome and best thing that ever happened” like our good buddy, Pat Flynn.J: Exactly. I was thinking exactly as Pat too. I was like sometimes it’s easier, just kicked out and you have to do it.T: Yeah. So in your situation much like mine you made the decision, if I did my research correctly, to quit. So there’s a whole lot of psychological stuff, and for those folks who are listening to this interview, yes we are gonna get to the online marketing techniques and strategies don’t worry but so much as I’ve become older I’ve realized that so much of successes is really what’s happening, it’s your belief systems. So can you talk a little bit about what was happening in your head around this thought of quitting your job and I guess was your original vision you’re just gonna become a blogger and magically somehow you’ll turn that into money? What was the plan back then?J: Okay so I mean the hard thing is that when I had that realization I thought I was successful and really noticing the $70,000 in debt was like oh maybe I’m not actually, maybe I made really bad choices so I couldn’t even just quit. So it took me a good, and my husband is a performer, he does like juggling and contortion and crazy stuff and always worked for himself and so quitting my stable job, my husband hates it and I’m always like, and my husband was juggler like I’m gonna quit a 6 figure job, my husband is a juggler. No offense to my husband. He’s wonderful. Really great at what he does. Makes really good money now but still back then it was sort of like “hhmmm yeah” like good idea Jamie.

So it was more of about like what are we gonna do? Like how can we do this? So it was a good that year of paying up over $70,000 in debt even before I could figure this out. And then I had that realization of going even if I have to sell my house, even if I have to go to extremes I’m gonna figure out a way to do this no matter what. And this worked on my mind, right? No matter what. So it wasn’t this whole thing of “yehey, let’s quit and I’m gonna know exactly what I’m gonna do.”Actually what I did I don’t recommend for other people which was I quit, actually one of the catalyst also was I wanted to have a baby and I couldn’t when I was travelling, you know, no time. So I was pregnant through most of the paying off all that debt and so my goal at first was just to have 3-6 months at home with my son. And then I was gonna figure out business stuff. I’ll figure out what I wanted to do which isn’t really a good idea. We had a good year and a half of expenses so that was great. We took that ton of money so that way it would be possible but yeah it was like “hhmmm now what do I wanna do after I quit my job? I don’t know.” And then it took over a year to even have general idea of what I wanted to do which was really bad.That’s why I don’t really suggest it. I suggest sort of struggling in your job and figuring out what you want to do. That way if it doesn’t work you don’t have to worry about it. Coz I tried, I have an iphone app, I have a provisional patent, I tried like all these different things just because I was curious and I wanted to learn it, figure out business stuff. And so that sort of why I started. I didn’t even start blogging. I mean I started it but it wasn’t even the thing. I’d started the blog almost 2 years before when I started paying off my debt and stuff like that and that was just a whim coz I wanted to start a blog. It didn’t have anything to do with it.T: Okay.

J: That was all over the place.

T: Okay so it wasn’t so much the decision of “hey I’m gonna be quitting and become an entrepreneur.” It’s “hey I’m gonna quit, I’m gonna spend some time, I’m gonna get my life back in order to balance, or whatever word you would like to use. I will spend some time with my new baby and then we’ll figure out the business thing afterwards.”

J: Yeah. Not a good idea but yes. Coz I knew I was gonna be an entrepreneur. I just didn’t know exactly what I was gonna do.

T: Yeah not entirely dissimilar to mine. Quit at $20,000 a year job, sold my house, put all the money in the bank, went back to school and had a plan to get a job. But I came up with a business idea while I was in school, draw out a business plan, got some funding, graduated from school, but the business didn’t succeed because it was a .flop a .com and then in the ashes of that, coz now I’m at zero, everything’s up from zero. I decided to start what ultimately the company that I had last and I built into a couple of million dollar a year company and sold it but again I don’t recommend for that transition or that path to anyone either.

J: You know what’s funny. It makes perfect sense to us now but of course you don’t know that at that time anyway, You’re just looking to do what you need to do and so while I know that now I don’t know if I’ll necessary would have changed it. And you probably wouldn’t do it. Like probably that failure was probably huge for you.

T: Yeah after selling that business it had a really profound impact on what type of business that I wanted to do next. And that’s why I’m online because and I think it’s such a great way for so many people to start because it doesn’t cost a lot of money, because you don’t have to quit your job to do it although it’s definitely helpful. There’s a whole bunch of really good reasons. So and this isn’t my interview, this is yours.

J: Right, sorry.

T: I read somewhere that at about month six of blogging you were ready to give up, I think. Have I got that right?

J: Yap. They say like do your blog for 6 months until you can find your voice and figure out your audience. And so I was like working my butt off trying to do the best blogging job I could ever do and I was a business coach at that time. So I have been a business coach for a couple of years before I started my blog back up. And I was going “this is wasting so much time and now I’m not making any money. Why am I doing this?” Right? Travelling is kind of important and blogging seems kind of them. And then the next week I couldn’t pull the trigger. I had a business coach and he was like “then just send an email to all your subscribers and say that we’re gonna stop this and that sort of thing.” I couldn’t pull the trigger. And shocking short days later I got an email from CNN saying that they wanna feature my site. And then from there it just started going kinda crazy.

T: Out of the blue. You didn’t pitch CNN beforehand, nothing?

J: Nope. The reason I found, I think I found out the way that they found me. I had a guest post on get rich slowly on my story and apparently, quite a few actually, writers for big publications got to read that blog and that’s where they got my story. But yeah I hadn’t pitched them at all.

T: Okay so that’s an important, very important point that you just mentioned and it piggy backs on an interview that I did with Ryan Holiday just not so long ago. So for those who’re listening who don’t know who Ryan Holiday is, he just published a book called Trust Me, I’m Lying… Confessions of a Media Manipulator. And in my interview and in his book, one of the things and we’re gonna talking much more about getting press in your and my interview, but one of the things he really stressed was important is don’t pitch the reporters of CNN, pitch the blogs that those reporters read. And so in your case did you know that get rich slowly was read by so many reporters or was that just a fortune smiling down on you?

J: I was like “hey that’s really big blog.” It took me a while to even go like I was big enough to guest post. Now I know JV well and we met and he’s super cool but at that time I was like scared. And so the funny thing is now I know a lot of reporters that actually read get rich slowly. I have a friend, Lorie Amandacamp that actually featured me in coz she writes there too. And she reads get rich slowly too. So it’s kinda simple, yeah it’s just kinda driven. I just did a conference where I talked about how I think people should guest post on bigger blogs, you know, not necessarily star blogs but bigger blogs coz you really don’t know who’s been reading it.

T: Well let’s divert, I mean coz that’s a very interesting topic, I’m gonna see which questions here in my questions that I wanna skip. Coz I was gonna talk about interviewing but before we get to that let’s sidebar on to guest posting because it is something that I have had some success with and something that I think I need to do more of. I’m sure many people who are listening to this would also greatly benefit from it. So Jamie’s crash course on guest blogging in 10 minutes or less. Go.

J: Okay ready? Well it’s funny. So I guest post in get rich slowly. I guest posted a few times since. The first time I did it it was awesome like 400 subscribers especially when I was a brand new blog I thought that was the coolest thing ever. I haven’t gotten that much fun then except way later someone who kept lingers for slow finance found the article. Even though it wasn’t new, even though it’s not big of a deal I think when people are searching which is one thing that we don’t really think about, when you write a guest post for someone else’s site that is a high ranking site especially with the SEO, when somebody searches for that free or something like that, that has a lot more chance of ranking especially if you’re a newer site. So that’s where I think it’s also very valuable that we don’t really think about stuff so when you’re writing guest post start thinking what the press might be putting in for search terms or when they’re trying to look at blogs, what would they really be looking for. I think that’s really important point for you.

But I might be distinct for guest posting in general in bigger blogs is to build relationships and you probably know that too. It takes a while. Sometimes people will, like JV, except when they’re trying to accept guest post which is great but some of the other people that are harder like Pat Flynn, I’ve known Pat for almost 3 years and I go “Pat, please give me guest post.” Well, I’m finally gonna have one coming up really soon. But in general I now have really good relationship for all the people so it’s really easy to get guest posts in other places because of that. So that I think is one of the big keys.

T: So how does someone begin to build a relationship with whomever at whatever blog? How should they start?

J: Interview them, not.

T: That’s one of my secrets. That’s why I’m an interviewer. It’s the best networking tool in the world coz nobody hardly ever says no.

J: Exactly. Okay I’ve interviewed over 70 millionaires so yeah. I have millionaire friends. I’ve been invited to Greece, to Fiji, and then for Maine. Like come on, so random come over to Maine and there’s like 2,000 people in it. Anyway, so I think you’re right. I think that’s huge. That’s not actually how I’ve gotten most of my relationships because my online marketing buddies and friends like most of them are millionaires and it’s kinda funny. So that’s not actually how I got that. I mean I never tell Michael Hyatt that I’m actually gonna be guest posting in Michael Hyatt’s too but that wasn’t really how I did it.

A lot was when I very first started online at all I knew nothing. Absolutely nothing but I have a lot of video background but I didn’t really know that much about blogging and internet marketing so what I ended up doing was going I need a mastermind group of people that know what they’re doing and I’m just kinda ask them. Coz there is so much stuff online, it’s so overwhelming. I have been online for 3 months going “I don’t know what the right stuff is.” And so I asked Pat Flynn and Mary Kate who actually used to work, well it’s a nice company now but she used to be just a blogger. Now I have millioinaires in the mastermind group too. But I decided that I thought it would be a great idea to start this mastermind group with a ton of really good people.

T: Wait a minute. Let me interject here for a minute and pardon my crass description, you were a blogging nobody who knew nothing and you went to Pat Flynn and said you wanna be in my mastermind group and he said yes?

J: I did. Now I remember this was 3 years ago so he wasn’t as huge as he is now, right? So I looked for people that were pretty big but not too big and I’ll give you one tip on how I got him to say yes. He’s gonna love that I’m talking about him now. Oh I talk to him all the time so it’s no big deal. So the way that I got him was I said what I was good at so I had been part of the viral video sensation called eepy bird who did diet coke and mentos online and so I knew a lot about viral video and I did a whole bunch of stuff to do that. So I’m short of said “you know I’m just getting online but I have a lot of experience and all that stuff.” And then I was like I wanna get really good people so I went on and found, tried to find as many other really amazing bloggers as I could.

So once you get lots of amazing bloggers then the other amazing bloggers want to come in on it, right? And Pat Flynn and I had a bunch of other people say yes that are pretty big. And so that was really cool. And then I set it up so it was very structured. A lot of people are like “hey, let’s start a mastermind group.” Yeah I don’t know, when do you wanna meet? My whole thing was very structured. I had pdf documents. So I had to actually ask Pat twice before he said yes but he said yes.

And so that was huge for me online in general so when I went out to blog world my first time I knew a whole bunch of successful bloggers who introduced me to a whole much other successful bloggers which made me cool, right? I’m now that cool blogger. I didn’t have to speak my first time even though speaking was great. I was sort of to be on the same level as them even though I had an itty bitty blog.

T: Yeah very nice. So you talked about structure and you talked about a pdf can you just give us a little bit more details on what you meant by that?

J: So I have run mastermind groups before and so I had sort of an outline of structure of like okay the first 10-15 minutes were going over the accountability from the week before we’re doing our wins, this is the same thing that we do every single week right now. And then we do a hot seat so every week there’s one person in the hot seat where we really talk about their issues and what they’re going through. And then we’ll do a resource or two so if there’s anything online that you’ve been really using that you really love we share resources. And then we talk about goals for the upcoming week and then we call each other accountable the next week. So that’s sort of the structure and that was laid out in the pdf and also people can’t skip more than 2 meetings. They have to really be dedicated and that sort of stuff.

T: Okay terrific. I like that. It’s nice to talk about wins, put someone in the hot seat, talk about tools and resources, talk about goals and then hold each other accountable.

J: Exactly.

T: Interesting.

J: Pretty simple.

T: So going back to my second tangent, I don’t know if people noticed, my first tangent was guest posting. So you talked about building relationships. You’ve mentioned that several things here that I hope people have noticed. Attend conferences, preceeding those conferences by doing the mastermind and reaching out to people, obviously interviewing is a fantastic way to do that but not everybody maybe wants to be an interviewer. What about in the social networks, did you retweet people’s stuff? Did you tweet at them? Did you comment on their walls? Were you doing anything like that to get on the radar screen of people that did not know you existed?

J :I didn’t do too much of that. It’s hard because if you’re not very big, like I did a lot, you probably too, I did a lot of messages like “oh my gosh, I love you. You’re awesome.” That were just some sort of laughed in the same thing. Like “oh thank you. Thank you so much, it’s awesome.” But it’s not, what you really wanna do is be on the same level with them to make sure that you’re not going “oh my gosh, you’re awesome. Thank you so much for what you do.” That’s it. They’re like “oh thank you.” But make it so that they know that you might be wanna set someone that they wanna know too. So what I actually did when I was first starting is that I emailed a lot of people and sort of what I always look for whenever I build any relationship whatsoever is connection. So what can we connect on? I remember there was a blogger and he used to write about lots of different stuff but one of the things that he liked was buddhism and a couple of other things that I really connected with him on so I sent him an email and I was like “wow, you like this which is the same thing. I did karate.” He was into karate. So I was like “we like all these things. That’s awesome.” Thanks for going over here. And so that makes someone go “oh they like the same stuff as me. That’s pretty cool.” That’s putting me on the same level. That’s not necessarily going “oh my gosh, that’s great. Thank you so much.” So that’s sort of what I try and do too. Even when I meet people now, even when I go to conferences, it’s really interesting to go “oh you like pasta?” Ah I love people. You know what I mean? Coz I all like all that stuff too so it’s pretty easy for me. But I love being able to connect with people and stuff like that so that’s usually the way I try that to start building a relationship with people.

T: Okay so you just email them, here’s what we have in common, do you wanna talk, some of them say yes some of them say no, great, and the ball begins to roll from that point.

J: As a name dropped in times too by the way. So like if I know they’re good friends with someone that I know I’m like “oh I’m friends with so and so. I just looked at your stuff.” And then start building connections and stuff like that.

T: Okay so now when you’ve done this, when you’ve planted these seeds, when you go to a conference it’s gonna be quite a bit easier coz now you’re not walking up to strangers and saying “hey what do you do? What do I do?” Which most people really don’t enjoy being on the receiving end of or on the initiating end of. But this way you’re up to say “hey man, nice to meet you in person first time blah blah blah.”

J: Yeah finally. Exactly, that’s exactly it. From the very first time, the very first blog world or any conference that I’ve ever been to I try and do my research on who’s gonna be there ahead of time and then connect with them beforehand and say “oh we should meet up. Oh I should see you.” So when I message them on twitter or when I see them it’s like “oh I’m supposed to be talking to you.” Not who is this random person coming up to me say trying to touch me when I’m trying to do something else. So definitely, from that very first one. And I’m trying to convince you to go to new me expo, I’m speaking there. Actually I’ll do the interviewing in January. But everytime I’ve gone, I went and spoke at the world domination summit you know I just love doing conferences. There’s actually a conference in Maine, so excited. Gerry Hepburn was there and Amy Porterfield and Chris Brown and then we all got to hang out this past weekend and just conferences are just super fun. I know nobody knows about that conference.

T: No and I tried, it’s late. Derrick, keynoting that, didn’t he? Coz he and I just traded an email coz I’m gonna interview him shortly and he’s like “hey dude, sorry coz I was just on the plane from keynoting something.”

J: He was hanging out with me. I have a picture of him with a big old lobster with his girlfriend eating lobster.

T: Nice. So which conference was that?

J: It’s called agents of change and my friend Rich Brooks put it on. I think Rich usually speaks at new media expo and blog world auction too.

T: Okay.

J: That’s actually how I met him. We’re both from Maine. I met him on the plane kind of I knew him a little bit but we sat together and the thing right down to blog world and he was speaking and I was speaking. I was like “hey wow, that’s really weird.” And we started a relationship that way so.

T: So new media expo, agents of change, blog world and there was another one that you mentioned.

J: World domination summit which is Chris Guillebeau’s. That was the best conference I think I’ve ever been to.

T: Really?

J: That was a very very good.

T: Have you ever been to Ryan Dice’s traffic and conversion summit?

J: I haven’t. Was it good?

T: I haven’t been but a good buddy of mine who had the same kind of company that I had and hands down he said best conference he’s ever been to.

J: Really?

T: Yeah.

J: Oh I love finding out what the best conference people have ever been to. Like that to me that’s what I wanna go to. I think I’m going to south by southwest this year too coz I’ve heard so many things about that so we’ll see.

T: Yeah that’s one on my list. And I attended Yanik’s underground in DC.

J: Oh yeah?

T: Last fall I guess it was now, earlier this year. Man I don’t even remember. It was pretty cool. There was a lot of people there.

J: Was it the best conference you’ve ever been to?

T: I think I might have said that. Hopefully Yanik is listening to this. I did get to meet him. He’s a super cool guy. Kinda short though.

J: I need to interview him. Really? That’s why we were just laughing about that in this last conference how short people are. I’m really tall. Nobody realizes how tall.

T: You’re tall?

J: Like I’m not that tall. But I’m 5’9″ but when I wear heels.

T: Yeah you’re 6 foot.

J: I’m really tall. And so like Derrick, not very tall.

T: Not so tall.

J: That’s very funny. Pat Flynn also. Sorry I’m giving away all these secrets of all these people but when you meet them in person.

T: The blogosphere is filled with short people.

J: Yes. It is.

T: I’m tall. I’m 6’1″. And not even, when I put my heels on I’m even taller than that.

J: I need to see that. Come with me to the expo out.

T: I will. Wow! Okay our tangents are really good and off track.

J: I know. So bad.

T: So this interview was supposed to be about, alright, let’s try and see if we can get this back on track. Hopefully our audience is having a laugh but they’re still listening.

J: I was gonna say one another thing. I interviewed Dane Maxwell just like you did and I’m friends with Dane. It was really bad. So this is not so bad. That was like an hour and a half of I don’t know what to say.

T: All over the place.

J: Everyone loved it. There were people even out, got lots of emails, people obviously were loving it. I was like yeah. He was like hiding the food that he was eating and goes I’m not gonna tell you what I’m eating.

T: Okay wait now I wanna really run and get my cat and just hold him up in front of the camera. I said to Jamie off here that I think my cat was gonna try and sit on my lap for the interview but I had to shoosh him away coz he purrs really loudly and the mic would actually probably pick it up.

J: I love the background stuff, you know what I mean? I love that stuff. I think it’s great.

T: Alright so you’ve had a lot of success getting press. Now so where you talked about how you got to CNN. But you were on the, and I learned all this in our pre-interview call, you’re on the homepage of Yahoo for 48 hours, sadly 46 of those hours ended up being a waste but I’ll let you tell that story. First of all, how did you get on to the homepage of yahoo?

J: Well I was already featured there twice in 3 months. So the first time was because of that CNN article. They had me listed in CNN then they asked me to be on the TV show within the next day or two. So Adam Baker from Man vs. Debt was actually in that same article. I didn’t realized I was the only one that there was about 6 other people talking about getting on the deck. I was the only one that they asked to go on CNN. So I went on CNN with Tony Harris on TV. And then from that a couple of days later they featured the story on yahoo and my face was on Yahoo’s homepage. So part of me was like maybe it’s coz I’m a girl, that kind of thing, that’s why they featured me up or something. I don’t know but that was the first one.

T: That was my next question, why do you think they picked you out of the whole crowd?

J: I don’t know. Yeah I mean there were 6 of them and I looked at the photos of the 6 of them and maybe I had a professional headshot so maybe that was why. I mean I don’t know.

T: Was there any other girls?

J: There were girls and guys but there was not one just girl so. I mean I know it happened again so that was a different picture of me so I mean that might be it too when the second one came about shortly after and watched it. I was in October, it wasn’t 3 months and then in March I was featured again because I was in Kiplinger’s personal finance magazine. And yahoo, the reason why I was in yahoo is coz they were syndicated so they syndicate CNN and they syndicate Kiplinger’s personal finance. And so it was the same of very similar story, dude pays of $70,000 of debt and a whole much other stuff.

T: So it was a good human interest story that obviously many people in the audience especially, and what year was this?

J: Well 2, well yeah.

T: Okay.

J: A while ago. When I first started. So a year after blogging. I’ve been blogging for just about 3 years now so about 2 years ago.

T: So during this current recession so lots of people could relate to being $70,000 in debt and in particular for you to be a young woman who was successful at getting herself out of debt and you’re not exactly hurt on the eyes, all of those things together I’m sure contributed to.

J: Can I quote you on this? A quote from Trent.

T: I told you yesterday I look like John Hem and I go to her and I go “who’s John Hem?”

J: I think I know who that is.

T: It’s the guy from Mad Men, Don Draper. I knew his character name but I didn’t know his real name. So she was laughing at me coz I had no idea coz I’ve been told quite a few times actually that I look like him.

J: I bet you should have a code.

T: A code, yeah maybe. Maybe I can call myself the Don Draper of blogging. Oh I’m gonna get some hate mail. Do not send me a nasty email. Jamie started this.

J: I know. Send him a nasty email, that’s fine.

T: Okay so you should probably tell what happened for 46 of those 48 hours or whatever the number is. Why it didn’t do you any good because while it’s not marketing related at all it’s a pretty important thing for people to understand if they’re going out to get press.

J: Yap. And this is what I tell, and I hate telling it everytime coz I feel stupid but let me tell it again. So both times my server crashed. So the first time it wasn’t that big of a deal, I had about a 1,000 people come because there was no link. Second time I was on the homepage of yahoo for 48 hours and there was a link.

T: Did you have control over whether there was a link or no link or is that up to them?

J: So the second time, everytime now I ask and so with Kiplinger’s personal finance I asked her to put a link online. I didn’t know it was gonna go to yahoo but I asked her to make sure there was a link and she said okay. So yeah, always ask, always always ask for a link. It’s really good for SEO anyway but also nobody, another issue. So the very first time I didn’t have, so I was on yahoo’s home page. When you googled my name my site came up. When you yahoo’d my name, which nobody says yahoo’d I think, someone else’s site came up and then my facebook page came up and I wasn’t even to like the bugs. So even when my site was up when there was no link it was just bad. There was really facebook fan request but that was about it.

T: I think you got a marriage proposal too, didn’t you?

J :I did. I’ve gotten a few more since then. I’m very proud of those.

T: And when you were on the homepage did you by chance dance around your office and say “yahoo!”.

J: No I didn’t. I should have. Maybe I can do it again. So that was the thing. Really, really ask for links and also if there is no link make sure when you google your name just in case they don’t have your website and google or yahoo or bing your name make sure it comes up in search results. So for 2 hours the second time works from going back and forth, the second time I was up in 2 hours, I got 8,000 visitors to my site in 2 hours.

T: That’s a lot.

J: Yeah. And then it crashed. So 4,000 times 46 hours, yeah I know it hurts a lot. So make sure that your site can handle it. I had a hosting site, a hosting company and it’s just a shared server and I’m a geek. I have a degree in IT, I know this, I saw work in the server room at a place and I was just dumb.

T: And you were on a $10 a month cheap skate hosting plan back then?

J: Yes I was. Till I see someone dumb. Yeah really dumb. Don’t do that.

T: Two thumbs up.

J: For me, yeah. Learn from me, don’t do that.

T: Okay so let me go back to my notes here coz we are eventually gonna get, I want people to learn more about this interview business coz it really is such a terrific business but I also wanted to make sure that we keep talking about press. Alright can you summarize for us then just like you did with guest posting the Jamie’s 10 minute crash course on how to get some press?

J: Alright I just did a snitch on this, it was a lot longer than 10 minutes so we’ll see if I can do this.

T: Maybe you’ll do a master class for me hopefully, hopefully.

J: Nice shot.

T: Maybe.

J: I don’t know. I’m kidding. So the first thing that I say is to start with like I don’t know if you guys know too much about it already but it connects journalists with people that are potential sources. I’ve gotten quite a bit of press from them. I’ve gotten fox business, success magazine, like a bunch of kinda cool places from there.

T: Say that url, Jamie please say that url again because I think they missed it.


T: Isn’t it

J: No.

T: No, oh my bad.

J: The name of the service is help a reporter out. The website url is Not very smart but that’s what’s written.

T: No yeah.

J: So I would do that and try and practice right pitching coz you need to get better at pitching before you get bigger stuff. So you can do some of the lower stuff that’s good for backlinking anyway. And then try and get the bigger stuff. And then the reason why that’s good is because when you’ve already had some press it’s much easier to get more of it. So on my site when it says I have all these press, people that come to my site go “oh I already know. She’s okay with the media.” Especially like TV stations and stuff like that don’t want you if you’re not very good on camera. So they wanna know that you’ve done stuff ahead of time or a good resource. So that just makes you a little more credible so that’s also why I say to start up with that and then move forward.

T: Okay so help a reporter out resource no. 1. Try and get some of the low hanging fruit, get some social proof, hone your pitch skills, build relationships with those reporters and over time you’re snowball will get bigger as it rolls down the hill.

J: Yeah. Just like I said with Laura Bandecamp who actually reads get rich slowly but that’s not how I met her. I met her because I was using help a reporter out. She needed a source for her book. I didn’t even know who she was. I became a source for her book. Later she emailed and was like “Oh my fifth for this article I’m doing.” And we’ve since build a relationship again going like “Oh I should take you out for coffee. You’re great.” You know that sort of stuff. So definitely start building relationships even when you don’t necessarily know where they’re gonna go.

T: Okay. Thank you for that. Now you have, I know you’ve talked about other ways we’re only gonna have so much time in this interview. So when we get to the end of this interview or the heck you can even say it now. You know people how can they reach to get more of you to get more of these stuff.

J: My blog is

T: There you go.

J: Yeah. I have a whole thing on press and stuff like that too.

T: Okay. So let’s talk about the interview business for a bit. It’s one that obviously we’re both actively involved in. And it’s your interview so you get to give answer to all the questions. Why is this such a good business to be in? And does it work in any niche?

J: It’s so funny because usually I am on the other side. I love talking. It’s so hard being an interviewer and going and I don’t say anything.

T: I’ve had people write me to tell me to shut up. They say let your guest talk so and here I am talking. So shut me up. Start talking.

J: I had that too. I just sent out a survey and someone said you talk too much and you just need more pictures of yourself on the site. So I’m like “oh you want me to shut up and then you want more pictures of me.” Yeah okay that’s funny. And it’s hard. There’s a fine balance coz you really want your audience to know who you are and there’s people that listen to my interviews love me which is great. I mean not all of them of course, right? But most of the interviews are from millionaires but a lot of them really like me too. So I love interjecting but you really have to make sure they haven’t heard this before because hearing the same story more than once is so annoying but you also wanna be able to build the relationship with like the millionaire. So when I’m talking a millionaire I want the millionaire to know all about me too.

T: Exactly.

J: So that way we can start building a relationship. So I try and look for like those connection points with the millionaire that I haven’t you know same old same old for my audience and not talk too much at the same time. So there’s a lot of different things going on. But yeah I absolutely love interviewing because almost no one, even millionaires, say no.

T: Yap.

J: Coz they’re flattered. You can start building relationship big time because there’s a lot of prep work before he enters the whole interview. You have to tell them later you know when it comes live you’re a lot of different touch points as you go. And you can continue the conversation and go “oh I love to have you on the show again in a little while”. That sort of stuff. So I think it’s huge for building relationships even if you didn’t get any traffic from this. You should interview. My mentor who taught me business coaching, I’m like you need to interview people because it’s the best way for him to get infront of even prospects or people that might be good relationships for him locally, he should do it too. So I think it’s huge.

And I think you can pretty much do it in just about any niche. I have a friend who’s a performer and I was like go interview all of the venues that you wanna be booked at because it’d be great. You’d have a podcast talking about like what they look for, you know maybe how they market so that way other venues can listen to them. And then you’re getting an email. It just makes sense.

T: Yeah it does. I just can’t say enough about all of the perks. I’ll be honest with you I started interviewing on my internet marketing blog called because I was looking for an easy way to produce more content. I knew that people were getting sick of hearing my stuff all the time and so I thought well coz I haven’t been successful at everything obviously. I’ve only had at that point in time I had a limited amount of success and so I thought well I wanna get free lessons, no. 1, I’d like to expand my network and I don’t wanna have to type all the damn content all the time.

J: Thank you for saying that.

T: Voila! The interview business was born and in my case it ended up spawning an entirely new business where this interview will be posted and I think that the potential for that business is just so much more than the internet marketing audience.

J: Yeah.

T: And I gonna give props to you because I took your advice for the people listening to this, in the pre-call Jamie told me about how she’d attracted all these millionaires to be as interview guests for her and some of them opted in to her mastermind and again you know what? I’m not gonna tell the story. It’s your interview. You’re gonna tell us, right?

J: Well what I was gonna say before, the reason why I started interviewing was I never saw myself as a writer. I can write and that’s great but to me, it took me a while and my mastermind group thanking this for them was like you’re really good at communicating and that sort of stuff. And so I was like I should do a podcast coz both Pat and Murin had a podcast already. That’s a great idea why wouldn’t I do that. And Murin was like you shouldn’t interview only millionaires. And I was like that’s a good idea I should totally do that. And it sort of came about from that. So because it’s so much easier to produce content this way too. You get new and interesting. You can have people that specifically know hard core all about that specific thing is huge. It’s awesome for content definitely.

T: And you know we all get transcripts done so this is just a little take away for anyone listening to this. If you still want to have written articles when you do an interview like this you end up with 10-12,000 words of content that you didn’t have to pay for. If you’ve asked your questions in such a way you can just get your VA to go and take the transcript and strip out one question and answer and wala! blog post.

J: Yeah it can be a huge thing. So yeah it’s huge. The transcripts, now I’m writing a book proposal right now who actually found me from my blog because I had all that press on there. Was like oh she must know what she’s talking then. And I looked at how many transcripts I have and each of them are 15 pages and I have 70 of them. Like that’s a lot of content. That’s so much content and it’s crazy. So definitely.

T: You and I are on similar paths.

J: Well you meet me in person.

T: I think I told you I’m doing a book as well.

J: Oh are you really?

T: Yap. And this is again I was attempting to give you props I meant in the go so I wanted to get some, people who’d made the million dollars online. And so I took your advice and I went and put a thing up on haro which was free by the way. And I said looking for people who have an expertise in online marketing and sales automation who are millionaires and would like to be featured in a book. And my book is tentatively titled, I don’t know if I wanna give the title away, somebody might turn off the registry so I’m not gonna give the title yet.

And I got a lot of responses and I did a pre-interview this morning before this interview of this guy, he’s got a $7,000,000 a year business that makes this hot sauce and he was jazzed to talk to me. And he was a really cool guy and he’s gonna do 2 interviews and he’s gonna be in the book and he’s gonna blah blah blah. You wanna make it bad, he’s probably got a mailing list for his $7,000,000 a year company and when my interview goes live it’s just promotion for him. If I have rapport with him, I’m thinking it’s fairly good chance he’s gonna tell his list about my site, his interview on my site which creates all sorts of opportunity for additional opt ins and traction and traffic and all these wonderful things.

And again I’m totally hijacking the interview but I wanted people to understand that this is it. It’s really such an awesome business to be in.

J: It is. It totally is. Congratulations on taking my advice now.

T: Yeah thank you.

J: That’s one of the biggest question I always get from everyone is how do you find millionaires. And as I responded to it, Trent, the very first time I put it out at haro. I thought I was gonna get 2 and I got 30. And I was like oh I should make this once a week instead of I was gonna do once every while, maybe once a month. I didn’t think it’d be that easy to find them.

T: Yeah and now a question that I haven’t asked yet and I’ve been thinking about, do you validate that they’re millionaire in any way, shape or form or do you just take their word for it?

J: I did that a lot. So I specifically asked them if they have a net worth of at least a million dollars or more and I need them to say yes. So I don’t go in a look at stuff. If I do the interview and I feel like they’re not telling me the truth or that they’re sort of shady then I’m just don’t post the interview.

T: Yeah.

J: But in general like if they usually seem really genuine and stuff like that I think it’s good. And I’ll look for stuff. Maybe when the book comes out that’s actually what I’m talking to my agent about. When the book comes out I think there’s gonna have to be more validation, more verification.

T: Yeah.

J: It’s like go through a publisher.

T: Absolutely.

J: Definitely.

T: And we could do, and we should do a whole other interview about publishing a book but we don’t have time for that one today. Maybe if you’ll be kind enough to come back on we’d do that.

J: Yeah.

T: We can maybe share our learning experiences. And a friend of mine who is been a marketer for quite a while, she’s written a number of books and just swears by the kindle platform. She said you know you don’t need traditional publishing around.

J: I know.

T: So there’s just a huge debate of which way to go and honestly I don’t know which way to go yet. I need to talk to more people who are smarter than me.

J: I was gonna say have you ever interviewed Johnny Andrews?

T: No.

J: Okay, Pat interviewed him, he’s a friend of mine and he’s been yelling at me too like don’t do it, don’t go to traditional publishing. You should totally have him on because he’ll give you his opinion. Now it’s just an opinion but he’s hard core.

T: I’d love to.

J: He’s got a lot of really good stories.

T: Can you make an email introduction?

J: I can.

T: Thank you.

J: Send me a note later.

T: I will. So it’s Johnny?

J: Andrews.

T: So if that’s not evidence of the awesome networking of interviewing people I don’t know what is. Alright.

J: And he did interview me way back so I didn’t even interview him.

T: Let’s talk about the interviewing business model for a minute coz I know that when I meet people and they ask me what I do for a living I tell them I have an online talk show coz it’s easy to understand.

J: It’s better. I should do that. I say I interview millionaires.

T: Well that’s cool too. But then they go the very first question is they go you can make money at that? And so there is a business model and not everyone’s is the same. Would you like to talk about yours?

J: Yeah mine’s? It’s fine coz we’re talking about this before. Mine’s a little different than yours. Well I mean not different. What I primarily was before and became online as a business sketch. So I have businesses locally, I have businesses all over the world now that I help. Usually they’re doing less than a million it depends on where they are now. So that’s what I love to do. That’s my passion. But I only work 20 hours a week so there’s always too much coaching that I can’t do. So I’m starting moving on to more sort of internet marketing types of things. So I have a membership site and I’m doing the book. And so doing a little bit more stuff that’s gonna be a lot more passive. And 20 hours a week it’s kind of difficult to do that much.

T: Yeah tough.

J: So it’s a slow process and I’m trying to make it be okay. But in general I’ve got my business coaching practice and then I also have the membership site and the marketing.

T: Okay so let’s just walk through this really simple. The interviews provide the content. You make the interviews available for free, correct?

J: Correct.

T: Are they always available for free or do you do like Andrew at Mixergy and put them behind the wall after 30 days?

J: I don’t but iTunes only shows the last I think 15 or so. You can get the rest if you come to my site.

T: Yeah. Andrew only shows the last 5 as and I decided to take a page out of his book on that one.

J: I just interviewed him and we talked all about interviewing so he care about interviewing. I just interviewed Andrew Warner from Mixergy and he gave really good tips that I have to implement also.

T: Yeah.

J: And so is this stuff.

J: The same thing that people talk about when you start a business like having your ideal customer. Well when you’re first starting you’re like I can’t, I’m gonna take anybody. Anyone that’s willing to pay me I’ll take them. And as a business coach, exactly. You wanna be working with the ideal customers. You wanna be working with the people that aren’t complainers. You know and that sort of thing. You’re gonna be so much happier. It just creates so much less stress with them also. So for your regular business make sure you’re listening to them.

T: And I wanted to take an opportunity to plug Mike’s book, The Pumpkin Plan. If you’re listening to this show and you’re running a business or your business is running you, and you just can’t figure out how to make the thing grow anymore but you’ve got a good product or a good service and you have some customers that really love you, you need to go buy Mike’s book, The Pumpkin Plan. You absolutely must buy this book and then you need to follow what the advice that he gives you because it’s really really awesome advice. And he gives evidence of how it impacted his own business and people he’s coached. And I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the book and that’s why I wanted to get him on the show.

J: I need to write it down too. Make sure you remind me. I don’t have a pen near me. Make sure to remind me to write that down later.

T: Alright I will. So I think we’re like way off topic now.

J: Yeah.

T: If somebody is still listening to this at the end and hopefully they’re fist pumping in their car and going yeah yeah yeah, you guys thanks for rumbling on for a while because I think it’s important stuff. So is there any other questions that I wanted to ask you? There was one tip you gave and we’ll close on this one on using haro to get press. And it was about response time.

J: Oh yeah. I actually ended up talking to somebody at haro because I wanted to find out what the real people did. I actually interviewed a bunch of PR people to try and find out what they do to get it. And it’s the same with enough 15 minute window. So when you sign for haro you’ll get an email 3 times a day which is a lot. And some people just delete them coz it’s really annoying. But if you can actually take a couple seconds to scan through and try to find exactly one that works for you and then within 15 minutes do your reply and send it back. There’s 2 reasons for this. The first is because you get a buzzillion replies and at first you’re like oh look can you read them? Especially somebody who’s a reporter, a bigger reporter. They’ll get a couple and then there’s just so many you have to start moving them into a folder and you don’t have the time. And the other reason is that a lot of times there’s bigger people like the bigger national media are on deadlines and they need to know something fast. So not only respond as quick as you can. You also include a phone number so that way they can call you and follow up too. So those are definitely good tips. I’ve gotten a lot more because of that.

T: And I took your advice on that and the first email for me comes in coz I’m on the pacific coast or pacific coast time it comes like at 3 in the morning so I just ignore that one.

J: What? Come on. Aren’t you dedicated?

T: That’s a lot for right now. The other 2 they come in at the same time everyday within a couple of minutes so I just set an alarm in my google calendar peep peep peep and I flip over to the gmail account that I use for that. Soon as they come in I scan it. It takes me 30 seconds and I’m only on 2 so I get 2 emails twice a day. Well 3 times a day but I don’t even look at the first one. And it doesn’t take very long. Like today for example somebody, they wanted someone with significant start up experience. Well you know hello, I’ve started a couple of companies, sold one. So I thought yeah okay so again I took your advice, I wrote them back , hi my name is, here’s the press I’ve been featured in, here’s my about page, here’s my relevant thing, here’s my phone number, here’s my email, I’m ready to go, if there’s anyway I can help you please let me know.

J: Perfect. Now in my speech if I do that again I’m gonna tell people to set an alarm. Do what Trent did.

T: Yeah.

J: That’s a really good idea. Awesome.

T: And I’m looking actually at my email inbox right now to see if I got a reply and I don’t think I did on this one but it’s a numbers game.

J: Well that’s the thing. It depends, right? So it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re gonna use it right away either. And that’s the thing that’s hard. The success magazine one I didn’t hear back for weeks. I thought I would just assume they didn’t get it. And then she’s like oh you’re in. And I’m like okay good, thanks.

T: Yeah actually now that’s a really good point and I’m gonna hijack you one more time because it’s relevant. So I got myself on Fox 5 news here a couple of times. And the first time that I did it so I met someone who knew the producer. In the subject line I said so and so referred me. She told me exactly how to write the pitch. It was 3 bullet points, you know, my name is blah, I think your audience will be interested in this because point no. 1, point no. 2, point no. 3. It’s the hook. I didn’t hear back from them for like 6 weeks. And then they had a slow news day presumably, a slow news day. And I get an email like 3:00 in the afternoon can you be at the studio tomorrow morning at 5:45 am? Absolutely I can. And once they have you on once then what do they think they did? They invited to come on again.

J: That’s a possibility.

T: And you know what? The funny thing was, this is before my online business and I get to talk about some failure here, this is awesome. In the time between selling my technology services company and going online I spent about a year learning everything I could about real estate coz I wanted to become a real estate investor and I was gonna buy all these foreclosures and flip them. And so here’s a guy who’s I’d never done a real estate deal. I think coz I just was a horrible failure. I just didn’t understand the price these people wanted to pay for these deals. I couldn’t see any profit so my offers never got accepted. But I got myself on TV as a real estate expert because I asked and I knew what I was talking about. I’ve been reading, I’ve been studying these stuff big time. So I bring that up only to say that don’t let your limiting beliefs like my buddy who’s been a realtor for 10 years, he’s a top producer, he looked at me and he goes are you out of your mind? He says you’re going on TV as some supposed real estate expert? And I said I know how to answer the questions. I know the answers.

J: Exactly.

T: And so my point is don’t let any kind of limiting belief get in your way. If you know your material, you know your stuff don’t be afraid to tell people that you are an expert coz the interview was easy and good and it’s not like they’re doing investigative reporting and trying to trip you off.

J: Yeah definitely.

T: It’s not what it’s like. Alright we need to wind this up coz I think I’ve got other interviews to do today but yeah it’s been a really good time. Jamie thank you so much for making the time. Obviously I’d love to have you come back on. You know I’m gonna ask you to come back on. I’m also asking you to do a master class for me on maybe starting a mastermind actually. Wouldn’t mind doing coz you seem to be like that’s something some people might like to do. I’m not gonna put you on the spot on air and ask you to come.

J: You have to ask me when you’re in Vegas when you go to the new media expo.

T: Absolutely I think that’s what I’ll do. Alright so that wraps up this episode. Thanks very much Jamie for being on. Last thing, if people want to get a hold of you, the best way to do it is…

J: Just go to You can shoot me an email there if you ever need anything or you can find the podcasts on itunes which is eventual millionaire podcast. That’s it.

T: And if you’re in a hurry to become a millionaire I think I’m gonna start a new plight inside that says become a millionaire faster than jamie can teaching you .com.

J: Oh I am a brown belt on karate. We will get started on that one.

T: No we’re just gonna stick with Bright Ideas I think.

J: Awesome Trent.

T: Alright folks that’s it. Thanks very much. That is a wrap for this episode. Thank you for listening. We’ll talk to you in another one.

J: Thanks so much.

Here are some of the things you’ll discover in this episode:

Media Attention Made Easy

Jaime’s Crash Course on How to Get Free Press

Jaime is a rock star at getting press coverage.  She’s been on tons of media outlets, including heavy hitters like CNN.  She was also on the front page of

Press coverage has been key to Jaime's success.Image Source:

Press coverage has been key to Jaime’s success.
Image Source:

Yahoo, free coverage which at first she was unable to take full advantage of.

In fact, when Jaime got on Yahoo, she realized she wasn’t prepared to be on Yahoo.  Hear her openly share the mistakes she made.  She also shares

one thing to ask for every time you get press coverage, whether it’s Yahoo or something smaller.

Listen to the interview to hear Jaime share her mistakes so you don’t have to make them.

Jaime’s Crash Course on How to Get Attention from Other Bloggers

Jaime is a master at building relationships with others.  She has leveraged these relationships to get tons of additional free press coverage.  She is a big proponent of guest posts, and sees this as a major component of what helped her grow her site quickly.

Hear Jaime share her tips on getting guest posts.

Jaime’s Crash Course on Interview Sites

I’m obviously a big fan of interviewing and interview sites.

Interviewing is an excellent tool to leverage for business growth.Image Source:

Interviewing is an excellent tool to leverage for business growth.
Image Source:

If you like Bright Ideas, you’ll definitely want to head over to Eventual Millionaire and check out Jaime’s site too.  She’s an engaging interviewer and her site is an inspiring example of how to leverage interview sites for your business.

Hear Jaime talk about why interview sites work so well.

All the Extras

Now, I have to admit that Jaime and I had mad tangents all over the place during our conversation.  I guess that’s what you get when you interview an interviewer!

But that also leads to some great content for you.  Jaime shares all sorts of hidden gems.  She even provides a crash course on mastermind groups.  And this interviewer of millionaires has formed some stellar groups full of millionaire, so you know this is good stuff!

Listen to the interview to hear Jaime share all her best secrets.

About Jaime Tardy

Ever since Jamie was little she’s had this weird feeling that she would someday have a million dollars. While she’s not quite to a million yet, she’s always been intrigued by how to do it.

She started out thinking the only way she could do it was to get a good job with a great salary.  So she went to a great (expensive!) school, and began working full time while still in school. By the age of 22 she was making six figures, and had an expense account. By the age of 24 she was in over $70,000 in debt.

Unfortunately, she hated her work. She had worked so hard, and had some cool stuff. But she was stuck in airports all the time. She dreaded Sunday nights because they marked the beginning of yet another long work week.

Jamie determined that living an enjoyable life was worth far more than a million dollars. So she updated my goal. Instead of just a million dollars, she wanted to find work she loved and the life she loved, and THEN make her million. She took time off to find out what work excited her.

And, she found it. Now she helps entrepreneurs focus their money and their strengths to create an amazing life while they build their net worth.

Jamie’s still learning too, so she interviews millionaires to get their best tips, tactics and advice from their successes and failures.

Digital Marketing Strategy: How a Brand New Blogger Got 50,000 Visitors in His First 30 Days – Without a List or Affiliate Promotion

Peep is the face of ConversionXL. His unusual name (to most people) is actually pronounced ‘Pep Laya’. He’s from Estonia, but lives mainly in the US these days.

Peep is an entrepreneur and a conversion optimization junkie. He runs a unique conversion optimization marketing agency called Markitekt (they make existing sites better and build new conversion optimized websites) + several niche internet businesses such as T1Q.

Peep delivers trainings and workshops on conversion optimization and internet marketing, consults businesses in need and plans the architecture of websites that sell.

Listen to the Audio