Trent: Hey there everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Bright Ideas Podcast. As always, I am your host Trent Dyrsmid and this is the podcast where I’m here to help you discover what is working any commerce by shining a light on the tools, the tactics, and the strategies in use by today’s most successful eCommerce entrepreneurs. In the private prior episode, uh, you heard me talking with Taylor Smits who advises sellers on how to choose prep centers and that was episode 291 in today’s episode 292 I am joined by Kevin Sanderson. Kevin is a full-time private label seller on Amazon who sells on nine countable nine of Amazon’s marketplaces. And his private label brand generates approximately $400,000 a year in revenue. So a very nice business. And Kevin also enjoys helping others to expand their businesses internationally, which is why he’s on the show with me today and I’m going to welcome him in just one moment.
Trent: We do have a sponsor for today’s message. This podcast episode is brought to you by My FBA Prep. If you, are you an Amazon seller? Are you tired of prepping your products at home or having the headache of running your own warehouse? My FBA Prep is a network of commercial prep centers with locations in every region of the country. For Amazon sellers just like you, they’ll save you time and money when you ship into them and you will be working with real people who have experienced inside of seller central checkout Prep Topia, their proprietary order tracking platform so you know where your inventory is and when it’s been sent into Amazon’s fulfillment center. My MBA, my FBA prep provides prep, logistics and fulfillment services for all types of e-commerce sellers. Put am my FBA prep.com to sign up or get a custom quote for any of your prep or fulfillment needs and when you do, you can enter a coupon code, BRIGHTIDEAS, that’s all one word and I think you have to put it in all caps as well.
Trent: And that will just sit to be, to save $30 off your first-month subscription and gang. For what it’s worth. For those of you who’ve been following me for a while. You know that I’ve had a warehouse for years. We shut it down and we are now using My FBA Prep. So Kevin, welcome to the show.
Kevin: Trent, I’m excited to be here.
Trent: I’m excited to have you here. All right, so let’s start off with the easy one and then we’ll go. Okay. They’re really tough questions. The investigative journalism that’s going to pin you down, but before we get me down in your own words, who are you and what do you love doing?
Kevin: Yes. My name is Kevin Sanderson and I love growing businesses. Um, I, uh, I guess you could say I started off as someone who was a “wantrepreneur” for many years and eventually got into the eCommerce game and became an entrepreneur and a full-time entrepreneur as of last December when I left my, uh, full-time job, I fired that boss of mine who actually was the friend of mine still keep in touch to this day. But, uh, he’s no longer my boss now. He’s just my friend.
Trent: Probably a much better relationship now, huh?
Kevin: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Sometimes. Sometimes things to do, get a little muddy when you’re uh, uh, your, your boss is your front. But I, I’m glad to be where we’re at now.
Trent: Yeah. Well think of my poor wife, her bosses, her husband, Oh, she listens to this episode and hears me say I was her boss.
Kevin: she [inaudible] the other way around. So that reporting relationship could be a little, uh, it depends on who you would ask.
Trent: Nobody email Liz fink on me. If you do, I’ll, I’ll send you bad karma and I’ll share. So you still on nine different marketplaces? I’ve heard of people selling on one or two, but you’re on nine. So um, you know, is, is it really worth it? It must be. You put all this time and effort into it.
Kevin: Yes. So it’s one of those things like I started on it as you mentioned in more the private label game and I had one product and it was launching another four and this was like, let’s say three years ago. And I was just looking at how do I start expanding my business. So I started looking into other marketplaces like eBay, etc, open a Shopify store. I was like, well, let’s throw these products I have on Canada and this is right before the holidays, maybe a little bit before that, and about three years ago. And I started noticing of all those things, I’m trying, the one that was actually the simplest, it may seem like there’s some hoops I had to jump through, but once I jumped through those hoops, like running, it was the simplest and that was selling in Canada. And so I replicated that and went into Europe, started off in the U K and started then going into some of the other marketplaces in Europe, uh, now and also in Japan and recently started in Australia. Um, and I would say it’s definitely worth someone’s while they don’t have to do everything all at once, you know, but starting with small increments and you know, for me it’s about a 30% increase on the sales. I make an Amazon in the U S I make internationally really just by copying over listings and sending over inventory. Kind of simplifying it. But most people tend to over complicate the process.
Trent: Yes. So as myth, many things in life, the devil lies in the details. So, um, and then I’m sure there’s a reasonable number of details. So let’s kind of go down that rabbit hole, which, which of the markets, let’s keep it relatively simple for the purposes of our discussion today is the EU of all of the extra markets outside of the U.S. out of the.com which one generates the most for you?
Kevin: EU generates the most sales as a number of sales. Um, but I would say profit is actually not too far off in Canada just because you tend to have to pay VAT, which eats up into your selling price. Cause then Europe, their um, their sales tax, which is called value out of tax is included in the selling price. Whereas in Canada it’s like in the U.S. where they added on. Yeah. So it’s just, you’re just passing it along basically.
Trent: Okay. Well let’s talk about Canada first and I’m sure we can deep dive into some of the other markets because Canada’s, it’s pretty close. And I’m Canadian, so, you know, let’s talk a little bit.
Kevin: Yeah, let’s do it.
Trent: What was involved, uh, walk us through the process. What you have to do.
Kevin: Yeah, so the thing about Canada is it’s English speaking. You know, technically you have to, um, theoretically you have like a French speaking, but here’s the thing, amazon.ca is all in English. Um, I anecdotally, I can’t say that like it’s 100% what you’re supposed to do, but everyone I know just uses their English listings, their English, whatever. I don’t even know where you’d put four-inch into Amazon dot. CA. Um, and the products itself, everyone just uses their normal inventory. And from my understanding, everyone in Canada is okay with that because generally speaking, it’s English speaking people that are on amazon.ca. So you don’t have to worry about foreign languages really is my point. And the nice thing is with Canada to get started, um, you’re really just filling out one form to the federal government and you’re filling out basically to get what they call a business number. And with that business number you want to get two programs. One is called import-export, which sometimes people refer to as non-resident importer. And then the other program is GST HST.
Kevin: And that alphabet soup is basically sales tax, we’ll just call it. And the nice thing is it’s all at the federal level so you don’t have to worry so much about, you know, 50 different States or however many States we have that have sales tax and what their rules are. You’re really just going into one state or sorry to the federal government in Canada and you only have to file if you have less than a million and a half Canadian dollars in sales once per year, which makes it super simple.
Trent: Are you saying that the lovely Canadians are making it easier than the Americans?
Kevin: Oh my God, yes. It’s amazing. Like, and the funny thing is like if you were to call, um, cause I’ve done this before for people that I’ve helped with the process, uh, if you were to call Canadian revenue agency and ask them questions, it’s like they’re super nice, they’re really friendly and you’d be shocked. They’ll ask you questions in return. Like, is this for FBA or FBM? And they actually know what the two mean.
Kevin: Oh yeah.
Trent: Wow. Go Canada.
Kevin: Oh yeah. They do a good job there.
Trent: Okay. So that is becoming what you’ve described as the very, very first steps in becoming eligible to sell your product on Canada. But you’ve got to get a, I’m assuming another seller central account for that CA. Right?
Kevin: Yeah. So basically if you just go into, um, inventory, uh, sell globally, you can just turn on to sell. Oh, okay. In Canada, it’s really simple and in fact, you’re actually logging in with your North American account in Canada. So it’s a, there’s a drop down and people probably don’t even notice it. Let’s, you know, let’s say your brand name or your company name, whatever it is at the top. And it’s probably like a little American flag next to it.
Kevin: Yup. You could click the little dropdown. Um, it might already even be there, but you could click Canada, then you go into Canada, add whatever listings you want to add and um, yeah, add whatever inventory. My recommendation is, is where it makes sense. Send it in as FBA inventory because it’s going to be a better experience for the customer and a better experience for Amazon and you’ll get more sales as long as your margins make sense.
Trent: Okay. So you’re not shipping to the warehouses in the States. You actually have to earmark some inventory and ship it to Amazon’s fulfillment centers up North of the border.
Kevin: Yeah. Unfortunate. You’re a hundred percent correct. Unfortunately, Amazon doesn’t want to get involved in the, uh, the process of getting goods across the border. So you have to be the one responsible for it. So it’s not as complicated as it sounds, depending on your product. You want to look into like you know, what are the weights and you know, how big is your product, but you’re really just talking about sending it across the border. You can use ups, you can use a freight forwarder. Here’s a little Ninja trick if you’re using ups, promo code easy or promo code fast. Those are two different promo codes that if you have an existing account, generally speaking, you can say 40% and I literally just helped someone with this two days ago and those promo codes work so they could, they could get rid of that at any time. But they seem to always work.
Trent: We like saving 40%.
Kevin: Yes. It’s not as good as sending it to like let’s say Charlotte or you know, whatever, uh, Amazon warehouse. But you know, the nice thing is these are new customers and new sales that you’re accessing that you wouldn’t access here in the States.
Trent: And so now, so we’ve got registration, we’re listed, we’ve got sales happening, we’ve got fulfillment happening now what about the money? So there’s a currency difference obviously.
Kevin: Yeah. And that’s the thing that I think people get kind of freaked out about is really, there’s two things I’ve noticed. People really kind of are apprehensive about one government stuff, which we just talked about a big portion of it. Another part of the government stuff is taxes, which we can go into a little bit. Um, in my non-tax professional understanding of it all. And then the other part as you mentioned, is the currency. So here’s the interesting thing. My sister is a sixth-grader and I shouldn’t say sixth grade. My sister is an elementary school principal K through six school. And I asked her, okay, let’s say somebody had, you know, let’s say we’re telling someone a dollar in the U S is equal 1.33 Canadian dollars.
Kevin: So 20 U.S. dollars is how much in Canada, what grade level would figure that out? And she said, Oh, that’s sixth-grade level math. So it’s sixth-grade level math to figure out the currency differences. So that’s one of those things that people do tend to over-complicate. Now, some of it is you can’t just take Canadian dollars and put it into Bank of America if you’re in the U.S. so there are some things that you got to know about foreign currency. So just to give everybody a little bit of a background, let’s say you Google USD to CID USL or to Canadian dollar to get the exchange rate. So whatever you see is that exchange rate, whether it be on Google or XC.com or some sort of site like that. Those are what are called mid-market rates. The only people that get mid-market rates are banks.
Kevin: So it’s what banks charge each other. So you’re always going to lose a little something anytime currency moves. So what you want to do is work out how you can do it the most favorably. So if you put in your us bank account into your Canadian seller central, um, settings, Amazon will be more than happy to move through your Canadian dollars that you’ve gotten minus fulfillment fees and whatnot and put it into your US Bank account. What they are not telling you is if you were to compare that to XC.com or Google’s not as good, it’s not as good. It’s about three 4% you’re losing and they don’t itemize that. It’s just baked into their exchange rate. So what you could do is save a little bit on that. So one way you could save on that is you could get a company like Payoneer or Ping Pong Payments.
Kevin: There’s a few different companies. They’ll lay basically let you hold that money in a Canadian dollar account or whatever foreign currency. Amazon will move your Canadian dollars without them changing it into US dollars. Move it over into an account with that company. Let’s say pay any or for example, just because that’s who I use. And then when you’re ready to transfer it into US dollars, you can move that and only say or only lose 2% so you’re going to save about one to 2% which over time that adds up. And then another couple of ways you can save money is if you’re running PPC, don’t run PPC and foreign marketplace on a credit card because you’re going to be paying off that credit card with money that you repatriated over, lost a little bit at an exchange. And then you’re also going to lose a little bit on the credit card when they pay because they’re going to have to switch from U S dollars until let’s say Canadian dollars. And so they’re going to bury in their exchange rate a little something to make it worth their while, which, uh, makes you lose money. So I would always recommend in other marketplaces, run your PPC to come out of your disbursements even if you’re getting, you know, one or 2% from capital one or whatever your credit card is.
Trent: Yup. Okay. And then how, what effect on my U S taxes is this going to have?
Kevin: That is a great question. And the thing of it is to keep this as extremely simple as possible. And this is where people I think kind of get like the most apprehensive. You have two buckets of taxes. One is sales tax, which that’s going to go to the local government. So in Canada it would be the Canadian revenue agency. Um, you can file, there’s a lot of services that can help you relatively inexpensively. Um, and then for your us, you have to pay, uh, uncle Sam, what you made in Canada. If you’re registered, let’s say with your US-based LLC, which is what most people do.
Trent: When you say what you made, you’re talking about profit, you pay tax, you and profit.
Kevin: Yes. So whatever your profits were. So sometimes people are like, well I don’t, I’m not 100% sure. The nice thing is as long as you have, I believe it’s $20,000 in sales in Canada, whatever the magical number is to get a 10 99, they’ll give you the 10 99 for Canada and it’s in us dollars. You just hand it to your accountant and then whatever else your expenses are. And it’s all figured out. And my accountant is not somebody that, some big international firm, I think I’m the only person he deals with. It doesn’t have local that not all of my customers are local. So he’s fascinated by what I do. But bottom line is it’s just basic math so he’s able to figure it out.
Trent: Okay. So the next most popular market for I think most folks here in America would be to look at selling on in Europe.
Trent: What? Walk us through what that looks like cause there’s some differences obviously others uh, and Amazon I think also has free consultants that will help you to deal with all this.
Kevin: Yes. Now my, my uh, I love Amazon and my suggestion to people is anytime Amazon calls you, you pick up the phone because you want to know what they have to say. So I’ll walk through a couple of different ways you could do Europe and one of which is Amazon’s preferred method. And one is the way I would suggest, which is a little different because at the end of the day, no one really knows what it’s like to sell internationally like another seller. So you know, the people at Amazon, they’re well-intentioned but they only know what they only know because they know their piece of the silo, so to speak, that they’re at. So if you’re going into Europe, you can basically look at European union almost kind of like the United States where each country is like a state, which is a little different than that. So, um, Europe, once you kind of figure out the VAT structure, the value added tax, it starts to make sense.
Kevin: But there’s a lot of landmines if you’re not sure. So the simplest way to look at it as wherever inventory gets imported into a country you’re responsible for that is because if you’re going to hold it in that country, you’re responsible for that. So what I recommend doing is you do what’s called the European fulfillment network. So you start into the UK you register for VAT, you register for what’s called an EORI number, which is basically their importer number, which is the same thing as your Baton number with like three zeros on the end. And then you will be able to sell to Germany, France, Spain. And Italy, the other four marketplaces. Now in those other marketplaces, you do have to get your listings translated, which is another level of complexity, which is why I recommend starting off just in the UK because it’s at least English speaking. A lot of times people, they really want to do Germany because sales oftentimes are higher in Germany. But the issue with that is, excuse me, you have to, you have to get your listings translated.
Trent: It sounds like you’re suffering from the same cold iron.
Trent: You now hold the world record for the most number of coughs in one of my episodes. For those of you who aren’t watching video poor Kevin is a coughing up along in his office and has been kind enough to mute his microphone. Hopefully, he will be back from the nearly dead here in just a moment.
Kevin: All right. So I put in my, a Ricola I think is a German or Swiss or something. So it’s from Europe and it’s got, looks like it’s, the letters are kind of German, so hopefully, that helps. But anyway, yeah. So bottom line is, uh, start with what’s called the European fulfillment network. If you talk to Amazon, they’re going to want to suggest that you do what’s called European fulfillment network because as I was mentioning before, if you how’s inventory in a country, so if you store it there, you’re responsible for that. So if you have inventory in Germany, you’re responsible for Germany, they want you to do what’s called panny you where you’re responsible for VAT in seven countries, the five countries, they have, um, marketplaces and then the Czech Republic and Poland, the issue is it’s extremely expensive and time-consuming to be compliant on that. Now Amazon likes that because it’s almost kind of like in the US where you have, um, let’s say Amazon will move your stuff from Illinois to Nebraska and they’ll just do it. Whereas in Europe, they will only move between countries for storage purposes if you let them, because now you’re on the hook. For VAT, I would just stay with the UK. You’d have to sell a lot of units to make it worth your while, um, to do pan European, even though you do save a little bit on the fulfillment fees, I would avoid it like the plague.
Trent: Okay. So you, so you’re not selling in Germany and you’re not sewing in France and the other markets in the, you’re just selling in the UK. Did I understand that?
Kevin: Oh no, no, no. Sorry. Let me, uh, let me rephrase that. I’m actually in all five marketplaces, but because goods can move around the European union freely, it’s just the storage of them is where you have VAT requirements.
Trent: So if somebody from Germany is placing an order and your goods are stored in the UK, are they being shipped from the UK to Germany?
Kevin: Yes! It’s almost like as if I could say, I only want my goods to be stored in Florida. And if you wanted to sell to people in, excuse me, Georgia, you could do that.
Trent: And it’s, and it’s still prime?
Kevin: Yes. It just takes maybe a day longer or something.
Kevin: But that’s a, that’s the best way I suggest doing it because at the end of the day, it’s not worth it to have, be on the hook for VAT in a bunch of different countries. But the nice thing is in Europe you’re going to get more sales than you would in Canada. Um, but the issue with going into Europe is that you’re now VAT gets kind of complicated. So there’s a few things you could do with VAT that you might want to look into. Now, again, I’m not a tax professional here, but the nice thing is in the UK they have what’s called the flat-rate tax. So generally speaking, if you are selling in the UK, your responsibility for vats 20%, which it’s not 20% of the selling price. It’s actually the selling price includes the 20% above it.
Kevin: So just to walk through that math, if you sold something for let’s just say 12 pounds and uh, the UK that 20% is actually 10 pounds is the selling price and two pounds is fat. But to the customer it’s 12 pounds total.
Trent: Cause 2 is 20% of 10 and they just added on top.
Kevin: Exactly. Exactly. So you could subtract out what you paid at the border, any other VAT you paid into the system. But one thing you can do is called the flat rate scheme. Now here in the US if we think about taxes and the word scheme, we tend to think, Oh, I’m going to go to jail. Um, there it’s just their methodology. So basically the way it works is, um, you could register for what’s called the flat rate scheme as a online retailer, and you only pay seven and a half percent. Now the math is not the same ratios, but let’s just use the 12 pounds. It would be seven and a half percent of 12 pounds, 10 pounds. But the bottom line is you’re saving money and you don’t have to worry about saving, um, receipts and invoices and whatnot that you only pay the government seven and a half percent of your sales quarterly.
Trent: Okay. So in terms of getting salt, so I want to sell on the, in the, in the UK. So I go into a U S seller central, I turn on the UK, just like I turned on Canada, I then I’m going to create, um, listings and they’re going to be an English. So that’s pretty straight forward. If you’re going to be in the other markets, I’m assuming it’s on you to come up with the translations for your listings.
Kevin: Yes. And that’s where it gets a little tricky because I speak English, I know a little bit of Spanglish from growing up in Texas and living here in Florida, but I don’t know enough to be able to proofread something. So it’s another quality of, uh, my translations. And I even had Amazon do translations for me and they even admitted they were not the best translations. Um, yeah. So that’s another one of the dangers of like, Oh, do you think it would be good? So I would go with a reputable translation service. Sometimes they can be a little bit more expensive. Uh, but on that note, it’s, it could be worth it. Now. Sometimes it’s worth it just to start out with like, let’s say a Google translate. I wouldn’t use Google translate long term, but having, let’s say your, your your product available in Germany, excuse me. [inaudible] I’m having your product available in Germany is better than not having it available in Germany. So if you had to at least put it in Google translate to at least get the listing up, you could do that. Yep.
Trent: Okay. So by one way or another, we’re now creating listings that are in the native language for the countries that we are selling. You’re now creating an inbound shipment for the inventory that you want to send, which is going to all go to the UK. And I would imagine the creating that inbound shipment is probably not a lot more complicated than creating an inbound shipment to the US fulfillment centers. And if it is or isn’t like is it going to be on the air or is it going to be on the boat? Like how are we getting across the pond?
Kevin: You could do it however you like to do it. So this is a general philosophy I have with international is whenever you’re ordering for the U.S. assuming the U.S. is where bulk of your sales is, just split up portions of your order to go to whatever country. Excuse me. So if you’re going to the, uh, the UK, you know, tell them to send it a portion of it into the UK and perhaps your supplier’s supplier in China. Okay. Your supplier in China or even if you’re, you know, wholesaling, maybe you have a wholesale goods that you can send across the pond or whatever the case is. Whatever makes sense. Um, but the nice thing is seller central in the other countries looks almost identical to what it is in the U.S. except maybe the money symbol looks different.
Kevin: So the mechanics are all the same.
Trent: So not, not an insurmountable challenge by any stretch of the imagination. Is there anything that I have not yet asked you before you and I cough ourselves into oblivion death in our listeners? Is there anything else that I have not asked you about selling internationally?
Kevin: Um, the big thing I would say is that a lot of times people have this opinion that, Oh, I need to wait until I’m a seven or eight-figure seller to do it. But think about this. It’s a, it’s a snowball effect. So as you cast a wider net, you catch more fish and as you catch more fish, you can reinvest those fish into other things. So basically if you think about it is you can grow your business faster by selling internationally and you can put that into other things you want to do in your business. So if somebody wants to, let’s say send traffic to a Shopify store or something, they could do that by selling internationally or they want to, let’s say grow new products, they can take the money they made from selling internationally and put that into other things in their business to grow faster.
Kevin: Because if you look at it, we do all these different things to grow our business. And sometimes we forget the things that are right there in front of us. And I say selling internationally for me is one of those things. It was right there in front of me. And I’m glad I did it early on. If someone’s been selling for years and they’re not in an international marketplace, now’s the time to start. But don’t feel that you have to go into nine market places all at once. You can start with one like Canada or UK.
Trent: Well, I’ve got to think that in some of these marketplaces that are much less developed in the U.S. the competition and the number of reviews that the incumbent sellers have, the gap isn’t going to be nearly so big as it would be in the U.S. simply because of the markets haven’t been around for as long and competition’s less.
Kevin: Yes, absolutely. The competition is less. And because let’s say, you know, in Canada you can expect generally about 10, 15% of your sales could be more, it could be less. Um, people are generally, other sellers are not as aggressive. Yeah. So I’m not doing a lot of giveaways. Uh, and the nice thing is too, when you take your product from the US if you’re, let’s say you’re doing private label, your reviews will carry over to the new marketplace. So you’re not starting over from scratch.
Trent: What! Do you mean If you’ve got your reviews on.com and you decided to start selling in the UK, they, when you create your listings there, you’re going to take those reviews over with you.
Kevin: Yes. Because all everything matches up either to the UPC code or the ASEN. So what’s interesting is let’s say you go into UK, um, on the search page. If you search for, let’s say you’re selling yoga mats, if your yoga mat is on there and you have a hundred reviews in the U S it might show that they’re on the search page, or you might have to click into the page for the listing itself to be able to see those reviews. Now, once you get reviews in that country, those will take precedence. However your US reviews will show up underneath that. So I, my anecdotal belief is customers in the other countries are used to looking at, okay, what do people in dotcom say? Cause they know there’s generally more reviews.
Kevin: So you’re not starting over from scratch. So you have some social proof going into it, which is also one of the benefits that makes it less risky than starting out with new products, which I think people should always be looking at what are my new products. But this is another way to grow without creating new products. Just using the ones you already have.
Trent: Yup. Okay. And one of the things I think we probably should add to make sure this is everything that you’ve talked about today is for non-ingestible products. If you’re talking adjustable, it’s a whole different deal, right?
Kevin: Yes. So if you’re doing, let’s say supplements, you have to get what’s called an NPN number. In Canada for example, which is a natural product registration number. I forget the exact what that stands for. But like there’s a whole process. You’d have to get new labels, you’d have to get, everything is new. The government has to do a lot more. So anything that’s ingestible gets a lot more complicated.
Trent: Topic for another episode.
Kevin: Oh yeah. That could be a whole other episode, but I do have some in case someone is selling adjustables. Um, I, I do have someone for at least Canada that does the process of getting them approved through a health Canada.
Trent: Okay. So before we conclude today, uh, I know that you prepared a freebie for my audience, so why don’t you tell us what it is and where they can get it?
Kevin: Absolutely. So I know we just threw out a lot of information and it puts together a checklist. Um, so if you go to maximizingecommerce.com forward /bright, I put together a checklist and then also in addition to the checklist, which I will send them, I also put together a free Flowster, um, so they can make an SOP in Flowster where I walk through these things as well. So you can get a, uh, uh, a paper checklist that they can print out as well as have the digital SOP and Flowster to walk through these steps. Because at the end of the day, the process of doing this is one of those things that is not as complicated as we may think. As long as we have all the steps in front of us, it can be another, you know, six-figure rather than new stream for your business just like it has been for mine.
Trent: Wonderful. Well Kevin, thank you so much for coming on to the Bright Ideas Podcast to shed some light on how to expand your sales internationally so that when people ask you, what do you do for a living, you can say, I am an international seller.
Trent: All right. Thanks for much, Kevin.
Kevin: There’s been lots of fun.