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How to Start a Marketing Consulting Business and Go From Zero to $35,000 a Month in Only 12 Months – with Sam Ovens

Do you think you need a fancy website, and business card, and plenty of startup capital to start a business? If you do, you’re dead wrong.

Sam Ovens started his marketing consulting business with no clue of what he was going to sell, no idea who would buy it, no idea how he’d actually deliver the work, and with no savings to speak of.

In this interview, you’ll hear Sam and I talk about:

  • (4:37) His number of customers and revenue
  • (8:00) His background, and how he got started
  • (10:30) His start as a marketing consultant
  • (13:00) How he used email to get his first clients
  • (16:00) How success led to more success
  • (19:00) How he made $10,000 sales, and closed $20,000 deals with $3k/mo in retainer fees
  • (23:00) How he used lumpy mail to find his leads
  • (25:30) How he delivered services using elance
  • (30:30) How he transitioned to a trusted advisor
  • (34:30) The difference between a service business and a product business
  • (38:30) The cons of a product business
  • (40:00) The cost of version 1
  • (42:00) His Big Business mindset
  • (48:00) How he used Idea Extraction to get his rich niche to tell him their pain
  • (51:00) How he researched Property Management
  • (58:00) Mistakes he made along the way


More About This Episode

The Bright Ideas podcast is the podcast for business owners and marketers who want to discover how to use online marketing and sales automation tactics to massively grow their business.

It’s designed to help marketing agencies and small business owners discover which online marketing strategies are working most effectively today – all from the mouths of expert entrepreneurs who are already making it big.

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Trent: Hey there, bright idea hunters. Welcome to the Bright Ideas podcast.
I’m your host, Trent Dyrsmid, and this is the podcast for marketing
consultants, marketing agencies, and entrepreneurs who want to discover how
to use content marketing and marketing automation to massively boost their
business.On the show with me today is an entrepreneur by the name of Sam Ovens. Sam
is the founder of a very rapidly-growing company by the name of
SnapInspect. Just over a year ago, Sam barely even knew what an
entrepreneur was. He literally had to actually Google the term when he
first discovered it and that was a little bit longer ago. With that said,
this interview, if you are a new entrepreneur looking for a business to
start or you are already a marketing consultant looking to grow your
business, this interview is going to be absolutely a mind-blower for you.I don’t want to sound too hype-y, but I took so many notes for myself when
I was doing this interview with Sam that I absolutely promise that if you
invest the time to listen to it, you are going to come away from this
interview with some of the most valuable insights possible that will
literally be for you, as they were for Sam, massive game-changers.His app, his company, SnapInspect — so a year ago, nothing, didn’t exist.
He had to figure out how to find the idea, how to get it built, how to pay
for it, and then how to turn it into a very healthy six-figure business and
he did all of that in just over a year. And keep in mind, beforehand, this
guy barely even knew what an entrepreneur was. So get some pen and paper,
sit down. You are absolutely going to love this interview.Before I get to it, I want to really quickly tell you about something if
you’re listening, if you’re not yet a Bright Ideas subscriber, I’ve got a
new four-part video series called the Conversion Tactics Toolbox. It
teaches you — shows you, actually; it’s free–exactly how I get bright
ideas to add so many subscribers every day to my newsletter list and
therefore my marketing funnel and, of course, that causes products to sell.
Go sign up at, with that said, get ready, here we go. This is going to be a really
good one. Please join me in welcoming Sam to the show. Hey, Sam, welcome to
the show. Thanks for making the time.Sam Ovens: Glad to be here.Trent: So for the folks who don’t yet have a clear understanding of who you
are, take a minute and just please briefly introduce yourself. Tell us who
you are and what you do.Sam: Okay, so I started a software as a service company called SnapInspect,
which is basically a property inspection app for property management
companies. They use it to inspect rental properties and create reports.
Yeah, so that’s basically what I did.Trent: Is this your first entrepreneurial venture?

Sam: First successful one, yes, but including the failed ones, it’s
probably my third or fourth.

Trent: Okay.

Sam: Yeah.

Trent: All right, so you’re at a point now where you’re having quite a bit
of success. So let’s talk a little bit about where you are today and then I
want to back this up to the process that you went through and how you
started off as a marketing consultant and used that money to fund this and
where there’s a whole lot of really good stuff I want to get into. But so
that people know where you’re at, because you’ve accomplished quite a bit
here in the last year since you launched the product, I really kind of want
them to know the conclusion first, so maybe we can talk about number of
customers and revenue, how’s that sound?

Sam: Sure.

Trent: All right, so how many customers and how much revenue?

Sam: So, last time I checked, we’re around 1,400 paid customers and revenue
is around about $400,000 annually.

Trent: Very nice. And on a software business, how much of that is making it
to the bottom-line? Quite a bit, I would think.

Sam: I mean, our expenses run roughly right now about $16,000 a month, so
you could do the maths on that.

Trent: The point of it is — and this is what I wanted people to get —
because here you are, this guy who fell on his face a couple of times
beforehand and then finally, when you got it figured out, within a year
you’ve made a massive transformation to your life as a result of this
business. Would that be an overstatement, do you think, or do you think
that that’s pretty accurate?

Sam: No, I think it’s pretty accurate. I’ve tried to be an entrepreneur for
probably, I think, three years now, maybe not quite three but close to. Two
of those years, I was practically just spinning my tires and then when
things sort of clicked for me, which was about a year ago, it just all
moved so rapidly. SnapInspect is one year old in August. SnapInspect is
only one year old and all of my business stuff has really snowballed in the
last 12 months and it’s been a pretty crazy 12 months.

Trent: And a lot of fun, too, I’ll bet.

Sam: Oh, yeah. It’s fun finally making money.

Trent: Yeah.

Sam: Instead of just finding ways to get more to spend.

Trent: Yeah, funny how that is. Being an entrepreneur is so much more fun
when you’re making a profit. All right, so let’s talk a little bit about
your background and then how you got into this and how you were a marketing
consultant, because a lot of my audience — and I really think this is
going to be a great interview for them — they’re either a new entrepreneur
like you were before this success came your way or they are a marketing
consultant looking to grow their business to the point where it’s providing
a very nice level of income for them and maybe some of them are at a point
where they’re already there and they’re thinking, “Well, how do I take my
business to the next level?” The pieces of your story, I think, will speak
to all of those people, so let’s kind of dive into that.

What did you take in college? What did you do before this? Were you born in
this entrepreneur whiz-bang family with a big silver spoon or is it
something other than that?

Sam: Sure. No one in my family is an entrepreneur or even in business. My
mum’s a teacher and my dad’s a builder and none of my friends are even
entrepreneurial. I think back home in New Zealand, I don’t even think I
know another entrepreneur and I never really was entrepreneurial. I mean, I
was obsessive with things, like if it was a hobby or a sport or whatever it
was, I’d always have something I was quite obsessed with and spend all day
and all night thinking about it and something like that.

Those are the only early traces I could think of what’s led to today
because I remember my parents and teachers always said to me, “If only you
could just get obsessed with school or college or doing something
productive instead of,” because my obsessions used to be race cars or go-
karting or something like that and that was me spending money and taking
time away from studying, so my grades were always below average and

Then I don’t know when the click was. I think it was, I went to a friend’s,
her dad was a very successful businessman and I went away to their island —
the guy owned an island — and I was sitting there and I was like, “Oh my
God, this is so awesome,” and then when I got back, I was like, “I want to
do that.” I think the first thing, my first move was Googling, “What is

Trent: No kidding, wow.

Sam: Not even kidding, just trying to get a definition on it because I’d
asked this girl, “What does your dad do?” And she’s like, “Oh, he’s an
entrepreneur,” and I was like, “I want to be one of those.” So I went back
and I Googled it and I bought a bunch of books and I guess that’s where the
journey began and that was roughly three years ago.

Trent: Wow, that’s cool. All right, so you fell on your face a few times
and we’re going to skip past those just because there’s so much good stuff
that I want to talk about what’s worked for you.

Sam: Sure.

Trent: Then you, at some point, started working for yourself as a marketing
consultant, is that correct?

Sam: Correct.

Trent: Okay, so when was that?

Sam: I joined The Foundation in October of 2011 and I learned a lot there
about how to start a software company from scratch. I got the idea for
SnapInspect and we started developing it, but I quickly realized I’m going
to run out of money. Development builds were coming in because we had
milestones with the original developers and I never even knew how I was
going to pay the next milestone, so I was constantly trying to figure out
ways, see which banks were offering student credit cards, trying to just
come up with money any way just to pay the development bills.

Then I was looking, I was talking to my developer like, “What do you think
server costs are going to be?” He gave me some numbers and I was adding up
the numbers and I was like, “Oh my God, I’ve got an awesome idea for a
company. This company’s going to work, but I don’t know if I’m going to be
able to keep it alive long enough for it to actually gain traction.”

So I quickly realized that I’m going to need a source of income to support
starting SnapInspect. At that point, I knew a bit about marketing and I
figured, “Well, these skills are probably helpful to other business,” so I
decided that I’d help consult other businesses on marketing and basically
sell my own services and use that cash to help get SnapInspect started and
survive through the early stages.

Trent: So let’s talk about how you did that. You’ve got no customers,
you’ve got some marketing skills which you’ve acquired as the product of,
presumably, your failures along the way. You’re out there trying to figure
out how to do stuff, it’s all on the line and you can’t help but learn
things. Then you made a decision, “Well, I’m going to go get some clients
because I need some cash flow or my business is not going to succeed,” so I
want to know what did you do — and I’m sure my audience would like to
know, especially the new entrepreneurs who are thinking, “Man, this guy’s
story sounds like mine,” — what did you do to get those clients?

Sam: Sure. My first attempt, like any of my first attempts, was pretty
weak. I just reached out to people I knew because I didn’t even know what I
was selling. I was like, “I know all of this stuff,” but I couldn’t put
into a sentence what I was selling. So it sort of started out with getting
a few cheap $2,000 or $3,000 website deals where I’d essentially just be an
order taker and help a business rejig their website and that’s how it

Trent: These were all people initially that you knew? But you didn’t have
any credibility with them as a marketing or a website developer, did you?

Sam: No, not at all. I just reached out via e-mail. They knew I was in this
whole online space, which most people don’t understand that most business
owners, outside of the tech and San Francisco space, they actually don’t
know anything about websites and so you don’t need to know much to be an
expert. In fact, most of the people that probably had the ability to find
your content and listen to it probably know more than enough to actually be
valuable to 95% of the businesses in the world. You don’t actually need to
be that much of an engineer to help other people out. Now I’ve side-tracked
myself, what was the question?

Trent: It’s okay, it’s okay. I couldn’t agree more. I think that is
something people overestimate or maybe underestimate, I don’t know what the
right word is, but they think they need to be this guru before they could
ever go to a small business owner that runs any kind of small business
that’s in your town and say to them, “I can help you with your marketing.”
So limiting belief number one that hope Sam has just smashed for you guys
is that you already know enough. If you found my site and you’re listening
to this interview and you know what WordPress is and you know what hosting
is, you already know enough.

Okay, so you sent some e-mails, you got some clients, $2,000 gigs, $3,000
gigs here and there. Is that about right?

Sam: Yup.

Trent: What happened next?

Sam: So that was enough money. From what I was making, that was a big
change. I mean, $2,000, $3,000 compared to zero? Pretty sweet, so I was
pretty happy with myself and I did quite a few of those and then I guess
the more I thought about it and the more of these little deals that I won,
the more confidence I got and I sort of found my foothold and my market in
exactly what it was that I did. So instead of being a consultant that
literally would do anything for money, I now had a very specific thing that
I did for a specific market.

Trent: Which was what?

Sam: So I would help B2B companies, so B2B companies that had high-ticket
priced items generate more leads with their websites.

Trent: Okay, so did you do that by helping them to do better conversions or
more traffic?

Sam: The beauty of this was that it was so much easier than doing even the
$2,000 deals because essentially what I would do is I’d put just such basic
stuff, like their websites would have headlines and basic copy which,
instead of saying, “We are the best. We, we, we,” it would talk a little
bit about the other person, the customer and what pains they’re
experiencing. So I’d rejig the copy, put a headline in and I’d create some
sort of lead capture system, which would just be usually a like a MailChimp
opt-in form for a free consultation or a pricing booklet or some sort of
information thing that they had. Most of the time, they had these in their
business; they just weren’t putting them to work.

Trent: So this is really basic stuff for us but, again, for these small
business owners, they had no idea how to do this stuff. So how much were
you able to charge to do this?

Sam: Well, so, my average–to do something simple as that, I would charge

Trent: $10,000?

Sam: Yup.

Trent: To tweak a headline, fix sales copy, put a lead capture form on,
presumably write some kind of autoresponder sequence on behind-the-scenes,
and get them to take some content they already had and turn it into a free
report/lead magnet, $10,000 for that?

Sam: Yup.

Trent: I hope, my beloved audience, this is sinking in for you guys.

Sam: Well, you’ve go tot understand that they didn’t know that they needed
that. If they knew that they needed that, they could do it themselves or
they could hire someone on Elance to whack it together for a couple hundred
dollars, but . . .

Trent: But they don’t know that.

Sam: It’s the advantage of not being an order taker but an advisor or an
expert and knowing exactly what you’d do because the beauty of B2B high-
ticket item companies is one sale to them is usually worth $50,000 to

Trent: Yup.

Sam: They’re already making plenty of sales and they’re making them through
their website with people going to the “Contact Us” form and filling out,
like, 15 fields, which was hard to find and I was thinking, “My God, if we
could remove some of this friction, rejig the copy, even if I just got them
one more in a whole year, it’s still worth it for them to pay me $10,000.”

Trent: Absolutely.

Sam: And I did. They got way more than one a year so as far as they were
concerned, they were away laughing. They only had to pay me $10,000 but
that’s the thing about pricing on value instead of cost.

Trent: Mm-hmm.

Sam: The whole time, I anchor my deals on what’s a new client worth to you.
They know it’s $50,000, $100,000 and if we can get at least one or two more
of those a month, they’re sorted. That’s the advantage, that’s why I picked
that as my niche and as my specialty because once I had one of those under
my belt and I could get a testimonial, I just started reaching out to more
of them that were in the same situation and it was easy. I’d put retainers,
I started to build retainers in and I started to charge more.

I did contracts where I’d implement a CRM system too. For example, a
company, it would need the website rejigged, it would need testimonials —
which I’d have to find — it might include lead capture, basic
autoresponder, and then it would have to feed into a CRM system, which you
wouldn’t even believe that a $10 million a year company didn’t even have a

Trent: They probably didn’t even know what it was.

Sam: I put a CRM in place, showed the team how to use it, we talked about
all of this new stuff. It was fun. I learned a ton doing it. The owner
loved it, the company profited wildly from it and that was a $25,000 deal
with a $3,000 a month retainer and still not even touching on any of the
stuff that the guys in your audience know, like split-testing and what
button colors convert. Forget that! This is simple stuff, right?

Trent: I’m loving that you’re sharing this because this is a perfect
example in this video that I mentioned to you before that’s on YouTube that
I get all these views on and we talked about before — I talk about my
green dot theory and it’s more or less the best way to succeed in business
is to be in business. Because once you start — and this is what I hope
that my new entrepreneurs who are listening to this will understand — you
don’t need a great idea to start, you just need to start. Then along the
way, like what happened to you, Sam, is the byproduct of the journey is
that you start discovering these rich niches that I talk about, the
importance of selling to businesses that have a high customer value, and
you discovered all the stuff. You didn’t think this up on a whiteboard and
say, “That’s what I’m going to do,” right?

Sam: Oh, so far from it, it’s ridiculous.

Trent: Yeah, fantastic stuff. Okay, and how, by the way — because I know
some people are probably thinking this — how did you find these companies
to go and you contacted them via e-mail always to begin with, was that

Sam: I tried lots of things and over time, again, I adapted my process. In
the end, my secret weapon was lump e-mail.

Trent: I love so much you just mentioned that because that’s one thing that
we’re starting to do, as well.

Sam: Yeah, that was my secret weapon in the end. I could send out pieces
and I knew that I was going to get a new client. I knew what my conversions
were off that and it worked, it really worked and I never paid for any . .
. I never used AdWords, never had Facebook, never had a blog. I mean, I
didn’t have anything. I didn’t even have a business card.

Trent: Did you have a website? You had a website?

Sam: Well, I mean, if you looked at, it’s one static page that
just says “Direct Marketing Consultant.” The website took me five minutes
to build.

Trent: Mm-hmm.

Sam: It pays to note I don’t even know how to use WordPress. I built my
website using Unbounce.

Trent: I love it.

Sam: I still don’t know how to set up a WordPress website.

Trent: I love it. So how when you were actually working with these clients
and you wanted to fix a headline and improve copy and put the webform on,
did you just give them the code for the webform and have their team make
the tweaks on their own sites?

Sam: That’s a really good question. That’s the other part of it: I never
did any of the actual work. So I would win the deal — that part is
important — I put a lot of my effort into winning the deal and that was
where I spent the bulk of my time. Then I would sit down with the business
owner and I’d ask him questions to learn about how we’re going to rejig the
site and how we’re going to generate leads.

Generally, he would give me all the information I needed and then I would
set aside a day or two to write the copy and I’d design all of the pages,
I’d just write them up in either Keynote or later on I used Unbound, but I
started out using Keynote, and I had a guy that I hired from Elance who
would do all of my implementation.

So I’d essentially win the deal, create a list of what needed to be done,
jump on Skype with my guy from Elance, brief him. He’d go and do it all —
like build the website, put the code on, do the style, all of that stuff
that I didn’t know how to do — and we had an awesome arrangement where he
charged a flat fee regardless of how long it took: $200 to do the

Trent: $200. So you’re selling a deal for $10,000 and it’s costing you $200
to deliver it, right?

Sam: Yup, yup.

Trent: I hope there are people listening to this podcast right now with
their jaw hanging open and then kicking themselves in the butt because
they’re doing too much analysis and too much paralysis before they get

Sam: It sounds illegal, right? But what people aren’t understanding is that
I’m not selling the doing. If these people knew what they wanted, they
could go directly to the Elance guy.

Trent: But they don’t.

Sam: I’m the one that’s telling them what they need, like I’m creating the
real value. The real value isn’t in doing. The real value isn’t in typing
the code or putting the MailChimp form on the page. There’s no value in
that. That’s a commodity. You can hire people all over the world on Elance
that’ll do that for next-to-nothing. The real value is in knowing how to
get the client more customers.

Trent: Mm-hmm, and knowing what the client needs when they don’t know

Sam: Yeah, and the best part about it is you get treated with so much more
respect when you’re not an order taker.

Trent: Mm-hmm.

Sam: Back in the day when I did $2k and $3k website deals, I mean, I’d show
them the site and they’d send me back a list of, like, 50 things to change,
like “move the logo a little bit to the left, a little bit to the right,
color of the font doesn’t look right,” just stuff like that and it killed
me because you’re essentially an order taker — you’re not an adviser or an
expert — and they don’t listen to anything you say because you’re
essentially just that Elance guy except a more glorified version that gets
paid $2,000 instead of $200.

That’s essentially what I was but when you’re the adviser and the expert,
they don’t fight you on anything. You never hear about a logo placement or
a color because what they’re hiring you for is the added revenue they’re
going to get, the customers. They don’t care about anything else and that’s
the way it should be. So, honestly, it really changed how I did the whole
marketing consulting thing because I went from busting my ass doing $2,000,
$3,000 deals to doing $10,000 to $20,000 deals where I was treated like
someone that was valuable and also not having a fight with the customer
over the color of a logo.

Trent: Just so that I make sure myself and the audience is crystal-clear on
the difference, the differences between starving consultant Sam and getting-
rich consultant Sam — and we haven’t even talked about your SaaS yet,
which we’re still going to get to — is you decided, number one, to focus
on a different niche, the rich niche, these high-ticket B2B companies. Then
you used your lump e-mail to get in touch with them and you positioned
yourself deliberately through the questions, I’m assuming, that you asked
them as a trusted adviser. Is that pretty much the difference between
“starving” and “getting-rich”?

Sam: Yeah, so, first of all, I mean, I would target companies that had
money to spend and I’d target companies where I honestly believed that if I
was to do what I wanted to do to their website, that they would value from
it more than what they would pay me. Because a lot of the deals I did early
on when I was what you’re calling a “poor consultant,” I honestly thought —
and there was no real added value to the company. I mean, sure their
website looked nicer, but I didn’t feel, I felt like this is a waste of
their $2,000, $3,000; it just looks prettier.

But with these other companies, I was happy to charge $10,000 or more
because they got the value from it. It sounds criminal and I used to feel a
little bit shady doing it but then when I really thought about it, because
a lot of the time after I had these big customers with $10,000, $15,000,
$20,000, $25,000, I felt guilty. I was like, “Oh my God, they’re going to e-
mail me two months later and they’re going to be like, ‘We want our money
back.'” But it was the exact opposite.

They told other people about me and I started getting referrals and they
loved it. They were like, “There’s a big difference,” and the people I did
$2,000 or $3,000 websites for, they still call me today because they say
something like their website isn’t loading fast enough. I mean, the
difference is I can’t even define.

Trent: Well, you’re doing a pretty good job of it so far and I hope that
the incredibly valuable message that you are sharing right now is sinking
in with the people that are listening to this. Folks, if you have
questions, there’s going to be a comment form on the blog post where this
interview is published. Make sure you use it and either Sam or myself will
answer them.

All right, so I kind of want to transition the interview now to the
SnapInspect story. So, obviously what you’ve shared with us so far has
communicated how you got some cash flow so that you could build this other
business, which has a bunch of pros and cons. Before we get too much into
SnapInspect — and this is something that when I was a new entrepreneur, I
didn’t know anything about — there are some pros and cons to a consulting
business and there are some pros and cons to a software business. I don’t
think many people, especially in the beginning, even have the belief system
that they could ever possibly even create a software business.

So, very quickly, just tell us the pros and cons of the consulting model
and the pros and cons, mostly what you just told me before the interview,
the pros and cons of the software model.

Sam: Consulting is one specific example but it’s really the pros and cons
of any service business and the pros and cons of any product-based

Trent: Sure.

Sam: But in my specific example, I’m going to use consulting and SaaS. The
pros and cons of a consulting business or a service business is, the pros:
you can get into business immediately. All you really need is a laptop and
a cell phone, plus the barriers to entry, there’s none. You don’t need to
build a product, you don’t need to invest in development and it doesn’t
cost anything or really anything. You can get into business straight away.

The other pros of the consulting business is you start to make decent money
pretty quickly so I started to make $3,000 where I had to pay my developer
$200. That was still $2,800 and while that’s not much money, that was a lot
to me back then, more than what my product business could do at the time,
so it can generate cash pretty quickly. Within a year, the consulting
business got pretty big. I grew it up to $35,000 a month.

Trent: Within a year.

Sam: Yep.

Trent: Fantastic.

Sam: It’s still at that today and, yeah, that was quick. It grew to $10,000
a month so much faster than SnapInspect did and the profitability of it was
much higher. It was very profitable. It was pretty much a cash business.

Now, the cons of a service business or a consulting business: firstly,
there’s no asset value. If you’ve got a consulting business, someone’s not
going to come along and acquire it because you are the business. It doesn’t
have an asset value, it doesn’t have a multiplier. You can’t say, “Well, I
earned $100,000 this year and using a ten times multiplier, the market cap
for my consulting practice is a $1,000,000.” That doesn’t work.

Trent: I do want to interject, though, from my own experience, I did have a
service business but it wasn’t just me — I had a dozen employees and we
had a lot of recurring revenue, MRR, monthly recurring revenue — and I
sold it for $1.2 million because the asset value was the recurring revenue
with the people behind it to do it all, so I just want to make sure that
the audience understands that service businesses can have an asset value if
you build them correctly. Not as good, necessarily, as software, but–

Sam: You want to make sure you are not the business.

Trent: Correct.

Sam: But I was the business, so if you can make your consulting or service
business run without you and it’s got some sort of reliable income that’s
predictable . . .

Trent: That doesn’t depend upon you.

Sam: Yes, then, absolutely, that’s a real business, that’s an asset. But
most consulting, it’s essentially the person, it’s just them and people buy
because it’s them and you can’t leave. So, yeah, you’re right, thanks for
correcting me, but my one was I definitely had no multiplier.

Trent: Mm-hmm.

Sam: And so–where was I, that was my con . . .

Trent: Yeah, now you’re going to talk about, I believe . . .

Sam: And also scaling.

Trent: Okay.

Sam: To scale a consulting business, there really is only two ways: one is
to charge more; the other is to work more hours; or the other one, which is
actually hiring more people, and there’s a limit on how high you can scale.

Now, on a product business, the cons: there’s barriers to entry. You have
to have a product. To do that, you need to develop it, you need to work
with developers, you need to pay money to build the product, test it, all
that stuff. That takes time, so speed-to-market, cost-to-enter is high, and
then also when you launch, you’re not making much money.

I mean, I had about 10 customers when I launched, paying around $150 a
month, that $1,500 a month. That’s still pretty good but my costs were
higher than that, so I was losing money and I was losing money for quite a
long time. Eventually it starts to pick up and scale but by the time it
gets out of that trough, it’s sucked up a fair bit of time and money.

Trent: How much do you think you burned through before you achieved

Sam: I don’t want to scare people — to get the product to market, version
one to market with 10 paying customers, cost me about $10,000.

Trent: Okay.

Sam: To build it up to where it is today, it’s not that same $10,000
product. There’s been a developer full-time on it for over a year now,
developing every single day. We’ve really built it out and invested in it.
I mean, it’s more than six figures — I don’t mean more than six figures,
but in the six figures range.

Trent: Mm-hmm.

Sam: So it’s under $300k but above $100k.

Trent: Yeah, it cost me probably close to $300,000 and several years before
my service business — which was not just me, it had a staff, so it had an
asset play achieved to break even. It’s expensive.

Sam: Yeah. Now, and also I don’t want to scare people off of the product
business costing that much. To get in there and to start selling, $10,000,
but I grew it without investing much money to a pretty decent income where
it was profitable pretty quickly, within six months. But I had this
realization that I just didn’t want a six-figure product business. I really
wanted a big business, like multi-millions, and so I figured, all right,
it’s time to turn the company into a loss and start making a loss with a
plan to scale.

Trent: But you had your consulting revenue to cover the loss for you.

Sam: Precisely, so I’ve always been a massive fan of big business. A lot of
people like lifestyle and all that sort of stuff but me, I’ve always been a
massive fan of just big business and so I’ve always followed people like
Warren Buffett and J.P. Morgan and Rockefeller and all of those guys and
been fascinated with how they think. I was reading the letters of Warren
Buffett–have you ever read those?

Trent: No, I have not.

Sam: Letters he writes to his Berkshire Hathaway . . .

Trent: Oh, yeah, the shareholders’ letters. I have.

Sam: Yeah, yeah, the shareholders’ letters and I was reading them, I still
read them. In it Buffett and Munger, Charlie Munger, were talking about
this concept of cash float, which is they use insurance companies such as
GEICO and I think they’re the largest insurance company holder in the
world, and they use insurance companies to generate cash float. So GEICO
and other companies, they charge the premium up-front, so you pay the 12-
month premium up-front and generally there’s 12 years before a client will
make a claim. So let’s say someone pays $1,000 a year over 12 years,
Buffett and Munger essentially have $12,000 of cash which they can invest,
and so they call that cash float. The reason they love insurance so much is
it produces huge amounts of cash that Buffett and Munger can take away and
invest in companies that need start-up money and money to get to scale and
get into profitability.

I was reading this and all of this clicked that my consulting business was
generating quite a bit of cash and I sort of thought of that as my GEICO,
my cash float business. So I started shifting the revenues from my
consulting business into SnapInspect to help it scale more rapidly. I could
get very detailed here, even into the tax things — but if you have a group
structure, you can shift revenue from one company to another company and
expense it in another company and it’s expensed against the revenue in the
other and it’s amazing how powerful it is.

You can essentially take money out of your service business, invest it in
your product business, and get a 10 times ROI on it. So let’s say you make
$10,000 in your service business. Shift it into your product business,
invest it wisely, get a 10 times ROI: that’s $100,000. That’s essentially
what Warren Buffett and Munger did and that’s why they’re so successful. I
use that same strategy today to scale SnapInspect, so shifting revenues
from my marketing consulting business into SnapInspect to help it scale.

Trent: Thank you for sharing that because I think that that type of
thinking is not commonly talked about, especially in the “Internet
marketing communities”. People there are all talking about getting rich
quick and a fast buck and all that stuff that is more or less a load of

Sam: Well, I found the perfect mix is to mix Internet marketing, like all
of this IM stuff, in with the big thinking that the big guys have and sort
of see ways that you could do what they’ve done in the traditional old days
and into today’s thing because Internet marketing, it’s very tactical. It
really lacks any form of where are we going with this. You know what I
mean? Like what’s the 10-year strategy? That doesn’t exist in the IM world;
it’s about making a buck today.

Trent: I couldn’t agree more. I have a course called the “Best Buyer
Formula” and right at the very top of the sales page, it says, “What would
you rather build: a business that’s going to make you a couple of quick
bucks or something that’s going to be around for years that you can one day
sell to somebody else for a big pile of cash?”

Sam: Yeah, well, I mean, yeah. I was broke for a long time and I lived at
home with my parents up until 12 months ago and my office was in my garage
and all I’d dreamed about was making that quick buck, because it would be
very nice to go to a restaurant and actually have a car that maybe had
leather seats, after being poor for so long. I mean, I can definitely see —
but as soon as you make that quick buck, like as soon as I was able to buy
a nice car and stuff, it gets old so fast that you immediately realize that
this is a long-term thing and you’re looking to build something. The quick
buck isn’t attractive any more.

Trent: That’s so true. I used a subject line once — and this got one of
the highest open rates that I’ve ever had — is “How to Build a Business
You Can Be Proud Of.” That’s the problem, I think, with a lot of the quick-
buck businesses, is that it’s not something you necessarily would want to
hang your reputation on and tell your family all about even though it’s
putting some money in the short-term in your bank account.

Sam: Yeah, I honestly think if you can’t tell your friends and family about
your business without cringing, then you’re never going to do well in it

Trent: I agree. All right, so let’s talk a little bit then about — I want
to talk about how you found — because I think this is a huge hang-up for
people, as well, and this applies to both people who are listening to this
who are thinking about starting any type of service business, as well as it
does to people who would be interested in potentially starting any kind of
product business and that’s how do you get the idea?

I want to give a shout-out to Dane Maxwell because I’m pretty sure that you
learned from him, he calls it “idea extraction.” Do you want to talk about

Sam: Yeah, this is big. This is actually how I took Dane’s thinking and
applied it to, basically, consulting to even find the market and what to
sell. This is a really powerful thing which Dane, I’d never heard anybody
else mention it before Dane. It’s called “idea extraction” and it’s
essentially picking a market, a decent market — so, I mean, most
entrepreneurs go out and they just target everyone. That’s failure number
one. You have to pick something specific and you have to make sure those
people have money to spend and it’s a decent market where money can be

So step one is pick a market, step two is talk to the market and find out
what their most painful problems are. Instead of coming up with an idea of
what you believe might help them or what you believe might be “cool,” I
mean, you don’t assume anything; you talk to them and you talk to them
about what the most painful part of working in that particular market is
and once you’ve found an extremely painful problem, you essentially build,
you come up with an idea to solve that problem.

I picked the market property managers and I started e-mailing and calling
property managers and asking them what the most painful part about their
job was and they said “property inspections.”

Trent: Sorry to interrupt you, but why did you pick property managers?

Sam: A lot of people ask me that and I wish I had a cool answer but it
literally was just in my mind. I mean, I had been at a dinner two nights
before, a family dinner, where there was a guy that owned a property
management business there and I was asking him questions about it and it
was doing really well. I mean, he had an Aston Martin so I figured this
dude was the man.

When I thought about, “What’s a profitable business to target?”, well, I
thought, ‘”This guy has an Aston Martin, he’s in property management, it’s
going good. This must be a good market.”

Trent: Okay.

Sam: I wish I could give you some sort of science to it but that was how I
came up with it.

Trent: But the thing I want people to understand is you didn’t get lucky
because some dude showed up in an Aston Martin. Because property
management, if you don’t go and do what you’re about to explain in a
second, you still didn’t or would not have come up with the idea for
SnapInspect, so what happened next after you saw an Aston Martin and
thought, “Okay, property management must be at least profitable?”

Sam: Sure. I did some other things to figure out whether it was a good
market to target because my old mindset was very doubtful, like I didn’t
just start looking into property — I mean, this thought was lingering for
two weeks and so I was looking at job websites and seeing what industries
were posting the most jobs available because I figured if people are
hiring, then industry must be good and I was Googling things like “what
industries are going well” and all sorts of things.

But property management still seemed to be good, I hadn’t ruled it out, so
I decided, “Oh, I’m going to look into this. This is my market to start
with,” and I basically jumped into Google and started searching for
property management businesses and started building a list of them in
Microsoft Excel, just going to their “About Us” page, copy-pasting the
company name, copy-pasting a couple of contacts from the business into
Excel and I built a list of 100 people and then I sent out one e-mail,
blasted it to all 100, subject line was “Strange Question” and I go, “Hi,
my name’s Sam Ovens. I’m currently doing some research on the property
management industry and the most painful problems in it.” Then my question
was, “On a day-to-day basis, what is the most painful task-related problem
you face as a property manager? I’d love to hear your answer, even if it’s
just one sentence. Thanks, Sam.”

I blasted that out to 100 people, got maybe 20 responses with people giving
me a couple of different answers. Then I e-mailed back those 20 people and
I said, “You sound like you know your stuff in this industry. Would you
mind jumping on the phone with me for just 5, 10 minutes so I can ask you a
couple more questions?” I think about 10 people said yes, and so I called
them up and we had deeper conversations. I think it was my third phone call
where someone told me property inspections were their most painful problem
and that’s where it all started.

Trent: I hope that the audience is understanding the gravity of what you’re
explaining and I’m going to repeat it because I think it’s so incredibly
important. You sent 100 e-mails to people who did not know you from Adam —
anybody can do that. You didn’t try to sell them anything in the e-mail;
you just asked them a question. Then you got 10 conversations out of that
and then you got an idea out of that.

Sam: Yep.

Trent: So that is the big golden nugget, folks. I mean, there’s been many
golden nuggets in this interview, but that has got to be one of the top two
or three.

Sam: Oh, if there’s a way to start, I mean, I might have got a bit too
advanced with the whole “cash float” concept and stuff, but this was the
major breakthrough, I think, for me, in the beginning, was you didn’t have
to come up with ideas in the shower or be a creative genius. You could just
find problems and build solutions to them. I think even Mark Cuban said
recently, “Innovation is dead. You just solve problems.” I’m pretty sure he
said something exactly along the lines of that, like you don’t need to be a
creative genius; if there’s a painful problem that someone has, you have a
solution to it, they’re going to buy it.

In business, people don’t buy things that are “cool,” people buy things
that solve problems and the more pain associated to a problem, the easier
it is to sell a solution to it and that’s true. I applied that same
thinking of idea extraction into my consulting business, so step one, which
is a pick a market, pick a profitable market, I picked a profitable market,
which was high-ticket B2B companies.

Then the next step was, “Well, find out what their most painful problem
is.” I started talking to a lot of these people and they just wanted more
customers, more leads. They wanted more in the pipeline and I figured,
“Well, instead of building a software product to solve that, I could just
provide this service.” So it’s not just for SaaS, and it’s most certainly
not just for SaaS and it’s most certain not just for products. That line of
thinking can be used to sell anything in the world.

Trent: By the way, folks, if you don’t know what SaaS is, it’s “software as
a service,” software that’s hosted on the web that people pay a monthly fee
to use.

Sam: Mm-hmm.

Trent: Sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off. I just wanted to make sure that
people didn’t get confused by that terminology.

Sam: Yeah, no, that’s no problem. So, I mean, yeah, I used that same line
of thinking to come up with my service business and I still use that same
line of thinking today. I’ve got some other businesses and investments that
I’ve got going on on the side now, too, because of that cash float. Once I
understood that concept, I wanted to put it in more places and I’ve still
used that same line of thinking to pick good markets, find painful
problems, and provide solutions to them.

Trent: Let’s talk about mistakes, because I want people to understand that
you’re not like this thousand-IQ rocket scientist and, “Hey, I can’t do
what Sam did. He’s way smarter than me, blah, blah, blah,” because that’s
just a limiting belief that inexperienced entrepreneurs let get in the way
or some of them do, let get in their way. I’m willing to bet that, just
like me, you made a truckload of mistakes along your way.

Sam: Oh, man, there’s a lot. See, that’s the danger of people listening to
me now. They might think, “I can’t do that. I can’t do this. He sounds like
he knows so much.” Well, geez, you should have heard me a year ago.
Honestly, a year ago, I didn’t even know what a lead was. I didn’t know
what SaaS meant. I actually Googled SaaS. I didn’t know about headlines, I
didn’t know about copy writing. I honestly knew nothing. I didn’t know
anything about software, I still know nothing about software. I mean, I
didn’t know anything, literally.

My other businesses were like a daily deal website that failed and a job
board website that failed. I mean, they were just the sort of businesses
that people start because they see a couple of other ones that are doing
well. There was no good thinking or logic behind starting those businesses.

Trent: No idea extraction.

Sam: Yeah, and so all of this, big mistakes I made, biggest mistake in the
world I made was starting a business before talking to the customers. For
example, I started my first business, which was a job board website, I
started it, I didn’t talk to a single person because I thought they’d steal
my idea. Even when I talked to people about it, like talked to my developer
at the time, I’d close the windows. I thought I was sitting on some sort of
Facebook version two thing, and that was bad because it never got any
oxygen and I never talked to a customer about it. I mean, it took me a year
to build. I spent $10,000 of my own money on it, which I had to sell my car
to get that, plus all of my income at the time and then we launched it and
there was just crickets. No one joined, so I thought, “Oh, hell, I’m going
to have to do the unthinkable and talk to some customers.”

So I started talking to some customers and they’re like, “What is this? I
don’t need this,’ and I thought there was something wrong with them but,
no, everyone just said that. So the business just died because no one
needed it. It didn’t solve any problem, it was just some cool thing and
cool things don’t sell. Well, that’s not true. I mean, I guess you could
say an iPhone’s cool but I guess an iPhone solves a lot of painful problems
that people used to have. But if something’s just got some little “cool”
factor to it and you’ve invented it just out of your own head without
solving any problem or talking to a customer, it’s going to fail.

Trent: Unless it’s a game or something like that.

Sam: Yeah, I mean, there’s always exceptions to the rule but talking about
the bulk, I mean, yeah.

Trent: Mm-hmm.

Sam: What’s another big mistake? I guess building something without first
trying to sell it. So, my second business solved a problem and people
thought it was good. I talked to the market, they said this was a problem,
they thought this was a good solution. They said they’d use it but I never
tested whether they’d actually pay for it and you’d be amazed at how many
people, even the customers in a market, will tell you that they’ll use
something and that something’s awesome and, yeah, they’ll pay money for it,
they’ll even say they’ll pay money for it, but when you actually get them
to pay money for it, it’s a very different story.

It’s like playing poker with no real money. I mean, I’m sure everyone’s
done that and watch the dynamics of the game; no one is sensible. They’re
all-in every hand and they don’t care sometimes. Pretty much, the game
never finishes because everyone just leaves because it’s so boring. But put
real money in, even just $10 a person, and everyone is dead serious and no
one is going to do any moves that aren’t sensible.

It’s the same in business. As soon as you bring money up and try to sell
it, people start squirming in their seats and you get the real
conversation. So talking about money and trying to sell something before
building it is huge because what I always thought is think about what’s
going to happen once I’ve built this product. So with SnapInspect, I
thought, “Once I build the product, I’m going to have to sell it to people
and then when I talk about money, they might not want to buy it,” so I
figured, “Why don’t I have that conversation now before building the

That was huge. I got to see the real responses and the real squirms and
objections and things of the market before building it and that would be my
second major thing, I’d say.

Trent: And those are two pretty common mistakes, absolutely.

Sam: Yup, for sure.

Trent: All right, we are coming up on an hour here and I generally like to
keep my episodes to about that length of time. So unless there’s something
else that you think that we should talk about, I think we produced a really
fantastic interview here, Sam. I want to thank you for that. So before we
sign off, again, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about?

Sam: No, I think I’ve covered pretty much my whole story from when I got
started in business.

Trent: Okay, so if anyone wants to get in touch with you, I’m assuming they
can just go to because I can see your e-mail address right on
it, so I will link to that website from the podcast or rather the post on and at the end of the interview — I don’t know what the
shortcode is — but I’ll give the exact path to get to this interview.

Sam: Yeah, is my website and is my e-mail and
if the e-mails are short and they actually have a specific question in
them, I typically reply to them.

Trent: Okay, terrific. Well, Sam, it has been absolutely wonderful to speak
with you, to have you on the show. I just want to give you a huge round of
applause for going out and Googling “entrepreneurship” and then becoming a
very successful one. I think that your family is undoubtedly exceedingly
proud and you should be, too, and I think it’s just fantastic what you’ve
accomplished and thanks for sharing your story.

Sam: No problem.

Trent: All right, and you can come back on the show any time you like. As a
matter of fact, I may reach out to you as I may want to do another
interview more devoted to your SaaS app because I’m sure there’s another
whole other hour or so of conversation that we could have around that, but
for now I think we’ve got it covered.

All right, to get to the show notes from today’s episode including the
transcript, head over to Now, if you’ve really enjoyed
this episode, I need to ask you for the smallest favor ever: just head over
to where you will find a link to leave us a rating in
the iTunes Store. I can’t stress how important it is and how much I
appreciate it every time a listener takes that moment to fire up iTunes and
go and leave us a five-star feedback and some comment because it helps the
show to get more exposure and the more exposure we get, the more folks like
you that we can help to massively boost your business.

So thank you very much. That’s it for this episode. I’m your host, Trent
Dyrsmid, and I look forward to producing the next one for you. Take care
and have a wonderful day.

Announcer: Thanks very much for listening to the Bright Ideas podcast.
Check us out on the web at

About Sam Ovens

sam-ovens-interviewSam Ovens is an Entrepreneur, Marketing Consultant and the founder of SnapInspect – a property inspection app for property management companies.

Sam started as a marketing consultant and used the money from his consulting business as “Cash Float” to start and scale his main business SnapInspect.

Click Here to Access the eCommerce Fast Track

Infusionsoft Tutorial: How to Create Top of Mind Awareness with a Newsletter Campaign

Are you top of mind with your customers and prospects? Are you regularly sending them educational content to ensure that you are?

bi-ultimate-marketing-automation-guideIn an era where our prospects and customers are continually bombarded with marketing ‘noise’, staying top of mind can be a challenge. As a result, it is absolutely critical that you are regularly sending your prospects and customers high quality, educational information to keep them engaged – as well as to position your firm as an authority.

One of the very best ways to do this is with a high quality newsletter delivered via email. When done correctly, your list will remain engaged and will share your message, and you will remain top of mind for the products and services that you provide.

Using Infusionsoft to Automate Newsletter Delivery

Thanks to Infusionsoft, delivering a high quality newsletter need not be as manual or inconsistent a process as you might think.

In fact, by using the campaign that I show in the video below, your newsletter will never skip a beat!

Automate Newsletter Delivery

In the video below, I’m going to show how exactly how this can be done using Infusionsoft.

Helpful Hints

When it comes to creating an eNewsletter, there are a few critical success factors that you must get right. They include:

  • Just start…and then improve as you go
  • Split test your subject lines to maximize your open rate
  • Deliver only high quality educational information
  • Keep sales messages to less than 15% of the content
  • Create an editorial calendar to plan your content in advance
  • Stick to a consistent schedule so you can ‘train’ your list to expect your content
  • Feature other experts in your content so they will also share it with their tribe
  • Segment your list to increase engagement
  • Use trackable links

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Infusionsoft Tutorial: How to Automate Sales Opportunity Management

Do you use sales reps to close deals? Would you like to gain more visibility into their activity so you can improve their performance?

bi-ultimate-marketing-automation-guideWith a marketing funnel, automation is fairly straight forward. You create the funnel, and then your new subscribers flow through it. If you’d like to watch a video that shows more detail on funnels, check this one out. (to experience the Bright Ideas funnel, become a subscriber here)

So if the funnel automation is pretty straight forward, what about the part where your sales reps actually start to engage directly with your leads? How are you supposed to maintain consistency and ensure that nothing falls through the cracks?

This is where things can get a bit trickier to manage if you don’t have a well defined process in place. Without a process, each of your sales reps may be guiding a lead through your sales pipeline is very different ways and this type of “wild west” approach makes measuring and improving nearly impossible to do.

Using Infusionsoft to Automate Sales Opportunity Management

Thanks to Infusionsoft, managing sales opportunities need not be as manual or inconsistent a process as you might think.

In fact, with a little forethought and creativity, you can actually ensure that there is a consistent process for how all your sales opportunities are managed!

Automate Sales Opportunity Management

In the video below, I’m going to show how exactly how this can be done using Infusionsoft.

Helpful Hints

When creating a sales opportunity skeleton, ensure that you don’t get so focused on adding in the details that the overall process becomes unusable for your sales team.

Instead, focus on creating a skeleton that will allow for the customization needed, while still giving you the insight into your rep’s activities so that you can identify areas where improvement is needed.

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How Aweber is Losing You Customers: The Big Picture of Aweber vs Infusionsoft

I’m often asked by people that are unfamiliar with Infusionsoft if they should pick it, or Aweber for their email marketing. What these people fail to understand is the magnitude of the differences between these two applications.


Aweber VS Infusionsoft: It’s Not Even Close

Comparing the two is like comparing a Porsche to a tricycle. With Aweber, you can do very basic email auto-responders, and nothing more, whereas with Infusionsoft, you can run your entire business; marketing, email, CRM, online shopping cart, affiliate program, and so much more.

So, with all that said, let me begin by giving you my opinion: Infusionsoft is a game changing application, and, by comparison, Aweber is just one tiny piece of the overall picture.

So, with that said, here we go…

Back when I first started my business with a list of subscribers, I chose a company called Aweber for my email marketing provider. They are well known and it only costs $1 to get started on a trial. If you like the software, you have to pay only $19 a month for up to 500 subscribers.

If you are just starting out with email marketing, Aweber is as good a choice as any; however, as your business grows, you are going to eventually run into some serious limitations and then, if you decide to change providers, the pain of change can be quite a burden.

In this post, I’m going to compare the two applications as well as to take a deep dive into why I made the switch from Aweber to Infusionsoft.


Aweber’s product has been designed with a single goal: broadcasting and automated email follow up.

They are not a CRM tool, they don’t offer a shopping cart, or anything else that Infusionsoft provides. They just do automated email follow up, so if that is all you need, Aweber will work just fine.


  • Low cost ($19/month for up to 500 subscribers)


  • Limited features (no functionality beyond sending emails)
  • Limited customization (you have to use double opt in and you are forced to have a named list for each of your segments, which as you will see when I explain how Infusionsoft works, really sucks)
  • List segmentation is hard (segmenting your list is extremely important and the way that Aweber does this is really a challenge because the only way to get a subscriber onto more than one list is to get them to opt in again which causes extra work for your subscriber)

The Biggest Drawback of Aweber: Multiple System Chaos

Aweber is a very simple application that does one thing very well – hence the short list of pros and cons. However, I have saved the biggest drawback of Aweber for last…and that is this: If you use Aweber, you will suffer from Multiple System Chaos.

As Aweber only does one thing, you are definitely going to need other systems to handle the other parts of your business that are shown in the image below. Do you really want to have to deal with that? I sure don’t!

With Aweber, you will be forced into using multiple systems and the more you have to use, the more complex your business will be

With Aweber, you will be forced into using multiple systems, and the more systems you have to use, the more complex your business will be

Infusionsoft: The Solution to Multiple System Chaos

In preparing for this post, I came across a number of other reviews that restricted themselves to comparing these two (extremely) different applications on a feature by feature basis, and in doing so, they completely missed the (very important) bigger picture!

I am a talented marketer, however, I am not the most technical person in the world and couldn’t write a line of code to save my life. For people like me, this means that using multiple systems will either result in lots of manual work (lame!) or the need for developers to write lots of code which can be a huge challenge as it requires a talented developer and a budget to pay for them.

Infusionsoft eliminates the need for multiple systems because not only does it do email marketing, but it is also my CRM system, my online shopping cart, and my affiliate program – all in one. As you are going to see in the remainder of this post, the integration of these 4 pieces is absolutely critical to your success.

Stop and Look at the Big Picture

Before I dive into all the reasons why I am such a fan of Infusionsoft, I’d like to draw your attention to the bigger picture. No matter what type of business you are in, there are some pretty important things that all businesses have in common. These things include:

  1. Attracting interest
  2. Capturing leads
  3. Nurturing prospects
  4. Converting prospects to customers
  5. Delivering your product
  6. Upselling and repeat sales
  7. Getting referrals
Infusionsoft was designed to support every step of Lifecycle marketing

Infusionsoft was designed to support every step of Lifecycle marketing

In a nutshell, this 7 step process can be referred to as lifecycle marketing and Infusionsoft has been designed from the ground up to support you in every single step, whereas Aweber at best will only support you with steps 2 and 3.

Keep reading, and I will, by way of example, show you why this is such a big deal.

Attracting Interest

Here at, we attract interest with our content – which normally consists of blog posts, videos, and podcasts. Neither Infusionsoft or Aweber really play a part in this step, so, while the concepts are extremely important, for the purposes of this post, we don’t need to talk much about it.

If you would like to learn more about how to attract interest, check out our Lifecycle Marketing Guide.

Capturing Leads

Capturing leads is generally done with what is called a lead magnet, which, most often is a free piece of content that is given away in exchange for someone’s email address.

In my case, the lead magnet is the Conversion Tactics Toolkit, which is a 4-part video series on how to maximize conversions.

Both Infusionsoft and Aweber make building a web form (the thing that goes on your website to collect their name and email) pretty darn easy as they both have form building wizards that don’t require any technical skill at all. Just drag and drop form elements until you have a form that looks how you want. Below is a screenshot of a form that I use to begin segmenting my list.

the form below the video was built in the Infusionsoft form builder. Aweber can do the same.

the form below the video was built in the Infusionsoft form builder. Aweber can do the same. Want to see my segmenting in action? Subscribe to my list at

Nurturing Prospects

Once you’ve captured a lead, what you do next is going to make a massive difference to your results, and it’s where most people really screw up.

Here’s what most people do: they begin sending the exact same sequence of emails to every single person that subscribes. Bad Dog!!!

I literally cannot stress enough the importance of segmenting your list. Why on earth would you send the same content to everyone? The needs of each of your subscribers differs greatly, so why would you send everyone the exact same content? You wouldn’t!

If you don’t segment your list, your email open rates will suffer and your unsubscribe rate will be much higher. From a marketing perspective, creating a Youtube video of your cat would be more effective :)

Infusionsoft Makes List Segmentation Easy. Aweber Makes is Really F$%@# Hard!

With Aweber, you must have a completely different list for each series of emails that you want to send. There are a number of challenges with this.

First, each list has to be a unique name that is not used by any other Aweber customer! (read that sentence twice to ensure that you really understand it)

That is just crazy…plus it makes naming your lists much more challenging than it need be.

Second…and this is even worse than the above, is that to get a subscriber from one list to another, you must get them to opt in again and that is going to mean more work for your subscribers.

Guess what that will mean for you? Fewer of them will bother, and as a result, your list will not be as well segmented as it could be.

Lack of Segmentation = Lack of Profits

With Infusionsoft, I don’t need to have separate lists; each with unique and hard to decipher names. Instead, all I need to do is apply something called a tag to a contact record…and, I can name that tag anything I like so that when I look at it later, it will be extremely easy for me to remember what it’s for.

Here’s a few examples of some of the tags I use (I have hundreds of them)

  • Clicked link to MobiLead Method sales page
  • Clicked link to [name of guest] interview
  • Bought [name of product]
  • Registered for [name of webinar]
  • Attended [name of webinar]
  • etc…

Essentially, a tag is like a little sticky note that I use to “stick” to anyone based upon something they click, watch, buy, or do.

Applying a tag is done automatically and can be applied in any of the following ways:

  • Subscriber clicks a link in an email
  • Subscriber fills out a web form
  • Subscriber buys a product
  • Subscriber flows through a campaign sequence

Tagging is unbelievably powerful and I could devote an entire post to it. The thing that I want you to understand here is that a tag can be applied without the need for a user to fill out another web form, so that means that I can make it extremely easy for a subscriber to be tagged based on their actions, or in the case of applying a tag as a part of a campaign sequence, I can apply a tag without my subscriber doing anything at all.

And yes, I can remove tags in the exact same way.

Tags in Action: A Practical Example

Ok…just in case this whole tagging thing isn’t really making sense, it’s so important that I want to give you an example as it pertains to nurturing a prospect.

When I capture a lead via a web form, I can tell Infusionsoft to apply as many tags as I like. At a minimum, I apply a tag that adds them to my newsletter list. I also apply a tag for the date they subscribed.

After they complete the web form, I direct them to another page with a video and another web form (shown in the screenshot further up in this post) and then more tags are applied to tell me that they have segmented themselves and what their occupation is.

Now they might, depending on which segment they are in, begin to receive a series of emails inviting them to a webinar. For this example, let’s say that there are 3 emails to be sent. If they click the registration link in the fist email, they do not receive the second and third email. If they don’t click the link in email #1, they will receive email #2, etc…

With Aweber, this is impossible. With Aweber, if someone is added to a list, they receive every single email that is a part of that list’s sequence unless your subscriber goes and fills out another web form, in which case you can remove them from list #1 and add them to list #2, or, you can have them on both lists.

With Infusionsoft, I might ask them to fill out a web form to apply/remove a tag, but I don’t have to as I could just as easily use any of the other methods that I have described above.

This one bit of functionality is incredibly powerful and it would take me far more than just this blog post to point out all the ways that this can be used.

To show tagging in action, let’s continue with this example…

Converting Prospects into Customers

Now that my subscriber has told me their occupation, Infusionsoft will send them a sequence of emails with links to product offers and content that are highly relevant to that occupation.

More Relevant Content/Offers = More Profits

Let’s suppose that this product offer sequence has 10 emails in it. If my subscriber clicks the link to the sales page in email #4 and buys the product, Infusionsoft will apply a tag that says something like “bought product A” and Infusionsoft will then immediately stop the 10 email sequence and will now start another sequence of emails that was designed specifically for buyers of product A (assuming I created a campaign to follow this logic).

Key Take Away: most people need to be reminded a few times to register for a webinar or buy a product, so with Infusionsoft, I can create multiple email sequences that will stop as soon as the user takes that action that I want them to…even if there are more “reminder” emails in that sequence. This one feature alone is hugely valuable as it increases revenue while avoiding sending too many emails to people who’ve already taken the desired action.

In the product A buyer sequence, I can do anything I want. Here’s a few examples:

  • Ask how they like the product
  • Ask for referrals
  • Send upsell offers
  • Automatically register them for a webinar
  • Start another campaign

Focus On Your Hottest Leads

Lead Scoring is another feature of Infusionsoft that is incredibly powerful because with lead scoring, you will always know who your hottest leads are at any given time, simply based upon which tags have been applied.

So, supposed a subscriber clicked on a link to a sales page from an email that they received as part of a campaign they are in. When that link is clicked, the tag is applied, and then, as you can see below, a lead score can be increased (or decreased) for a given period of time.

A contact's lead score can be automatically adjusted whenever a tag is applied.

A contact’s lead score can be automatically adjusted whenever a tag is applied.

Within Infusionsoft, leads a scored using a simple scale of 1 to 5 flames and, if you are creative in how you build your campaigns, you can trigger further automation that is starts when a lead score moves from 1 to 2 flames, or from 2 to 3 flames, etc…

Why do this? Don’t you think people with 5 flames should be paid attention to? I sure do!

This cannot be done with Aweber.

Create Lists on the Fly

From time to time, most businesses want to offer some kind of special promotion or discount on one of their products. Thanks to all the tagging that I do with my subscribers (remember, I apply tags for virtually everything my subscribers do/see/click/attend), I can very easily create a list of potential buyers based upon any criteria that I like. For example, I can easily create a list of invitees for a webinar that would appeal to only a portion of my entire audience and then send invites to only these people.

In both cases, all I would need to do is to run a query against my database that looking something like this:

Show me all the contacts who:

  • Subscribed between this date and that date
  • Have clicked the link to my MobiLead Magnet sales page
  • Have attended at a particular webinar
  • Who are not yet MobiLead Magnet customers

Hopefully, you get the idea. With tags, I have unlimited power to create a list of suitable contacts and then send them an offer anytime I want.

This is impossible to do with Aweber.

As I hope you are starting to realize, applying tags is an incredibly powerful and easy way to segment your list and Aweber simply cannot do this. It’s just not built that way…plus, it won’t tie into your online shopping cart unless you buy more software or hire a programmer.

With Infusionsoft, this is all done via the visual campaign builder. Below is a screenshot of a campaign created to recover an abandoned shopping cart. Tags and automation are the key to making this work.

This is a screenshot of a campaign created in Infusionsoft's campaign builder to recover an abandoned shopping cart. Tags are the key to making this work.

This is a screenshot of a campaign created in Infusionsoft’s campaign builder to recover an abandoned shopping cart. Tags are the key to making this work.

As I said earlier, Aweber does not have a shopping cart, so, without hiring a programmer, this type of integration will be impossible to do.

Delivering Your Product

So, now that you’ve collected the money via Infusionsoft’s online shopping cart, you actually have to deliver the product or service.

If your product is digital, you can have Infusionsoft automatically send out an email with a download link. This is easy as pie.

If your product is physical and is shipped by a fulfillment partner, you can have your campaign send a message to your fulfillment partner’s server and the order will be fulfilled automatically after the order is placed. This means you don’t have to do order fulfillment and and instead can be off doing something else…like say…sipping a margarita on your patio or playing with your kids :)

If your product is shipped by you or your staff, or you have sold a service of some kind, you can tell Infusionsoft to assign tasks to you are anyone else on your team. You are only limited by your imagination.

Did I mention that Infusionsoft has a CRM component? Well, it does, it’s a fantastic tool!

You can pull up any customer record you like and see a summary of all their tags, their orders, the campaigns that are running, the emails they’ve opened, and anything else you could ever want….and it’s all in one place…which means no more wasting time searching through multiple systems for the data you need!

This is the summary view. Clicking the icons provides much more detailed information about each contact.

This is the summary view. Clicking the icons provides much more detailed information about each contact.

Upselling and Repeat Sales

Unless you have only one product, or you like to continually look for new customers, upselling your customers to generate repeat business is a very good idea.

The reason for this is obvious: you don’t have to incur the expense of finding a new customer, so your net profit per transaction will be much higher than if you did.

With Infusionsoft, you can put product upsells on auto-pilot, and when you do, it will make a massive difference to your bottom line.

For example, 26% of the people the buy The MobiLead Method (now the Best Buyer Formula) decided to buy the first upsell, which is a bundle of done-for-you content. In addition to that, 6% of the people that bought The MobiLead Method also decided to buy the MobiLead Magnet, which is a WordPress plugin that I built to be used with the course.

If, during the checkout process (which is handled by Infusionsoft), someone doesn’t purchase one of the upsells, I could very easily create additional sequences to make additional offers down the road, and it would all happen on auto-pilot.

You cannot do this with Aweber.

Getting Referrals

Back when I ran my last company, Dyrand Systems, we got a lot of business from referrals from our existing customers. This happened because we did two things right: we delivered a premium service that our customers loved, and then we asked them to refer us to other people.

Back then, the asking part was a manual process that was done by our account managers.

Thanks to automation, identifying your happiest customers and then asking them for referrals can now be done completely on autopilot.

The NPS survey tells Infusionsoft who is most happy and then sends them an email with a request for a referral.

The NPS survey tells Infusionsoft who is most happy and then sends them an email with a request for a referral.

With Aweber, you cannot do this on auto-pilot.

Final Thoughts

While extremely capable, Infusionsoft does have a few draw backs.

First, it is much more expensive that Aweber. Depending on what promotions Infusionsoft is running at any given time, the software requires an up front investment of $1,500 to $2,000 and then costs between $219 and $379 per month. Aweber starts at just $19/month. But remember…do you want a tricycle or a Porsche?

If you are struggling with justifying the price, I would encourage you to check out the many Infusionsoft success stories and tutorials that I have published. In each, you will hear an entrepreneur describe how Infusionsoft has had a huge impact on their business.

The other drawback with Infusionsoft is that the application, due to its much vaster array of capabilities, requires more learning to attain proficiency. The good news is that Infusionsoft’s free training material is excellent, as is their support department. Plus, their new visual campaign builder has dramatically simplified the user experience. When people see the campaign builder for the first time, their response is generally something like “wow!” or “that is totally awesome!!”.

In addition to these two resources, there are also an army of Infusionsoft Certified Consultants who would be happy to assist you. My wife being one of them :)

Obviously, no system is perfect and prior to choosing which one is right for your business, a thorough investigation must be done. Hopefully, if you are trying to decide if you should choose Infusionsoft or Aweber, this post has been helpful to you.

If you have additional questions, please use the comment form below and I promise to provide you with a prompt answer.

Additional Resources

If you are a marketing consultant or run a marketing agency and are thinking of purchasing Infusionsoft, I’d like to let you know that if you use my affiliate link, I can have Infusionsoft give you a copy of a full campaign that I created just for agencies. You can see this campaign here.

In addition, I have also created an extensive library of tutorial videos and interviews with highly successful Infusionsoft users that you will likely find incredibly valuable.

And finally, if you have questions, please contact me directly.

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Digital Marketing Strategy: How to Grow a Remarkable Agency Using Proven Small Business Marketing Tactics with Mike Michalowicz

Each year Americans start one million new businesses, nearly 80 percent of which fail within the first five years. Under such pressure to stay alive—let alone grow—it’s easy for entrepreneurs to get caught up in a never-ending cycle of “sell it—do it, sell it—do it” that leaves them exhausted, frustrated, and unable to get ahead no matter how hard they try.

This is the exact situation Mike Michalowicz found himself in when he was trying to grow his first company. Although the business was making steady money, there was never very much left over and he was chasing customers left and right, putting in twenty-eight-hour days, eight days a week. The punishing grind never let up. His company was alive but stunted, and he was barely breathing. That’s when he discovered an unlikely source of inspiration—pumpkin farmers.

After reading an article about a local farmer who had dedicated his life to growing giant pump­kins, Michalowicz realized the same process could apply to growing a business. He tested the Pumpkin Plan on his own company and transformed it into a remarkable, multimillion-dollar industry leader. First he did it for himself. Then for others. And now you. So what is the Pumpkin Plan?

Listen to the Audio

Click Here to Access the eCommerce Fast Track

How to Maximize Conversions with Trackable Links

Do you ever wonder how much of your traffic is coming from people typing in your URL vs people clicking links in your emails?

bi-ultimate-marketing-automation-guideHow about that post you shared on Facebook? How much traffic did that wall post send you? Or how about that tweet about your latest webinar? Did it send much traffic?

Answering these questions is exactly what using trackable links are for and in this post, I’m going to dive deeper into showing you exactly how you can start using trackable links to gain much deeper insight into what is working and what isn’t when it comes to using your content and social networks to attract traffic to your site.

About Google Analytics Custom Campaigns

Google analytics is a very powerful tool and I’m only just starting to scratch the surface of how to use it most effectively. One of the parts that I have been experimenting more with as of late is the custom campaigns.

By using trackable links, you can easily create custom campaigns that will tell you exactly which pieces of content are generating the most traffic for you.

Why should you care? Well…if you can identify a trend in the type(s) of content that generate the most traffic, then it might be a good a idea to continue to create, or even just spend more time sharing, more of this particular type of content, right? You bet.

The first step to creating a custom campaign is to create a trackable link with the Custom URL Builder. By using this tool, you can easily create specific links for each of your campaigns and then use these links to share your content on your social networks, within your site, or in your emails (or anywhere else you want).

Creating Your First Trackable Link

In the video below, I’m going to show how exactly how this can be done using the URL Builder and Infusionsoft.

How to Analyze Campaign Effectiveness

Once you have begun to use trackable links, you are going to want to start to track the effectiveness of your various campaigns. To do that, all you need to do is log into analytics and navigate your way down to the section devoted to Traffic Sources…and then within that section, you will see the campaigns section.


Helpful Hints

The very first thing you should do when you begin to use trackable links is to create a spreadsheet to track all the parameters you are using.

For example, in the video above, my campaign source parament was “bi funnel” because I wanted to track all the traffic I get from the subscribers who are going through my sales funnel. If I didn’t make a note of that in a spreadsheet, the next time that I went to create a link I might forget that I’d used “bi funnel” and instead I might type BI-Funnel, which from Google’s perspective, would be an entirely different campaign.

When entering your parameters, it’s also important that you separate multiple words with an underscore. So, instead of putting ‘wall post’, you’d want to use ‘wall_post’.

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KATY HARRISON 4 inch x 6 inch x 300dpi x FC

Digital Marketing Strategy: How the La Costa Resort Increased Revenue from Social Media by 65%

Do you know exactly which pieces of content are producing the most revenue for you?

If you did, you do think that would help you to better understand the needs and wants of your audience?

Of course it would. As a matter of fact, getting that kind of insight would be hugely valuable because it would allow you to create even more of the types of content that are driving the most revenue in your business.

How to Tie Revenue Back to Content

Using Analytics tracking links and custom campaigns is incredibly valuable when it comes to giving you insight into which pieces of content are producing the most revenue and new subscribers. To see a specific example of how to do this, have a look at this post.

When you listen to this fascinating and informative interview, you are going to hear Katy and I talk about:

  • (03:54) How La Costa Increased revenue by 65% via Social Media
  • (7:00) How Katy uses Google Analytics to track revenue and tie it directly to content
  • (14:20) How Katy is split testing Facebook ads
  • (21:20) How Katy’s team increased revenue from email marketing by 54%
  • (24:00) How Katy segments her mailing list
  • (25:00) How Katy is managing her editorial calendar
  • (28:00) How Katy is using re-targeting to increase revenue
  • (32:00) How Katy is using Twitter chats to increase engagement


Additional Resources Mentioned

Below is a screenshot of La Costa Resorts custom campaign tracking.


Below is a screenshot of Katy’s  editorial calendar for email.


Below is the screenshot of how we use Google calendar to manage our editorial calendar. Green items are done. Red items are “to do” and yellow (not shown in this screenshot) signify “in progress”. Oh..and blue signifies Liz and I’s wedding :)


More About This Episode

The Bright Ideas podcast is the podcast for business owners and marketers who want to discover how to use online marketing and sales automation tactics to massively grow their business.

It’s designed to help marketing agencies and small business owners discover which online marketing strategies are working most effectively today – all from the mouths of expert entrepreneurs who are already making it big.

Listen Now

Enjoyed this Interview? Here’s How To Leave us a Positive Review on iTunes!

If you enjoyed this episode, click here for more information on How to Leave Us a Positive Review on iTunes! Your review will help to spread the word and get more entrepreneurs like you interested in our podcast. Thanks in advance - we appreciate you!

About Katy Harrison


Katy Harrison is the Online Marketing Manager at La Costa Resort and Spa in Carlsbad, CA. She manages the luxury resort’s website, email campaign, social media and online presence. Originally from South Shore, MA, Katy moved to San Diego for the year-round beach weather in 2007. Prior to her role at La Costa Resort, Katy honed her PR and social media skills working at a reputable downtown San Diego PR and advertising agency with clients including The San Diego Museum of Art, Del Mar Racetrack, NTN Buzztime and BillMyParents.

Follow Katy on Twitter: @OmniLaCosta

Click Here to Access the eCommerce Fast Track

Infusionsoft Tutorial: Marketing Campaign for Consultants and Agencies

In this Infusionsoft review, you are going to see how you can totally automate your entire prospecting and nurturing sequence so that you can significantly increase your conversion rate.

bi-ultimate-marketing-automation-guideWhat do you traditionally do with the leads that you capture? I am assuming that most of you will call them or send them an email. If they don’t respond, you will call them again or send them another email. If they don’t respond again, you will probably call them again or send them another email.

Now, here’s the real question. What do you do next?

If you are like most small business people, you stop trying to contact the prospect and they end up in the trash.

Do you realize how much business you potentially throw away every single day? Imagine the impact on your business if you could convert an extra 10% of the leads that go in the trash.

Have you ever wondered why it’s so important to nurture your prospects?

It’s because 81% of your sales happen after you make seven or more contacts to your prospects. Seven contacts! How many of you can honestly tell me you attempt to make seven or more contacts to your prospects.

Please don’t feel bad because 85% of the time, we stop after 1 to 2 contacts.

Have you ever wondered the cost of not making the additional 4 to 5 contacts to each of your prospects?

Let’s say you do a campaign to 10,000 people. This could be by email, direct mail, etc. Out of those 10,000 people, 100 people say they are interested in your product or service. Out of those 100 people, 10 people end up buying your product or service.

I’m assuming many of you would be thrilled by closing 10% of the people that were interested in your product or service.

The question I always like to ask is: what happens to the other 90 responders? Most of them fall through the cracks, have zero follow-up, or will end up buying from your competitors.

In other words, most of these 90 responders will end up in the trash.

What if, on the other hand, you had a way to easily stay in touch with them? What if it was automated?

What if this system allowed you to convert 15, 20, or 25 people instead of just 10? How much of an impact do you think all that extra profit would have on your business?

It would be huge, wouldn’t it?

That’s what I’m talking about! If you aren’t systematizing the lead nurturing process, you could be leaving thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars of profit on the table…for someone else’s business to grab.

Now, that’s just not good business!

As you can see, the key to great nurturing is AMAZING follow up. This is where so many businesspeople drop the ball. They are great at making lots of contacts and connections but they lack the skills necessary to follow up properly.

This is why most businesspeople need a specific campaign or path to follow to deliver the right follow up and this is the exact problem that is easily solved with marketing automation software like Infusionsoft.

Infusionsoft: A Much More Efficient Solution

If you are an Infusionsoft user, there is there is a much more effective way to achieve greater results with less effort (and frustration).

In the video below, I’m going to show how exactly how this can be done.

Want a Copy of This Campaign?

If you purchase Infusionsoft via our affiliate link, we will provide you with a copy of this campaign for free.

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MIKE WORLEY FC x 4in x 6 in x 300dpi

Digital Marketing Strategy: How Mike Worley Generated $55,000 in His First 90 Days As a Marketing Agency Owner

Special Update: Since this interview was originally recorded, Mike Worley went on to generate $55,000 in his first 90 days in business! If you’d like to get direct access to Mike, join the Bright Ideas Mastermind Elite (he’s a member).

Mike Worley is probably the most loyal listener I’ve ever met. He’s listened to every single episode of the BrightIdeas podcast!

Here’s a snippet from an email he sent to me…

First of all just got to thank you for all the value that you have provided through Bright Ideas. For the past 3 yrs I have had 2 hrs of driving a day as I was leading the marketing efforts for a Publishing company in Colorado. I have listened to every single podcast that you have done and can’t thank you enough as it has helped me to take the entrepreneurial leap in starting my own marketing agency in the last month.

With your help and a few other influential podcaster’s I’m launching the agency (Clymb Marketing: with 5 retainer clients July 1st and will potentially double my salary in the first six months. I have also launched a non-profit that is teaching 100 teenagers in Colorado how to start there own sustainable business’ as well ….I’m still boot strapping but would be way behind the curve if it wasn’t for the incredible content that you have created so thank you!!

When I saw how much success he was having I immediately asked him to come onto the show and explain how he’s accomplished what he has.

More About This Episode

The Bright Ideas podcast is the podcast for business owners and marketers who want to discover how to use online marketing and sales automation tactics to massively grow their business.

It’s designed to help marketing agencies and small business owners discover which online marketing strategies are working most effectively today – all from the mouths of expert entrepreneurs who are already making it big.

Listen Now

Enjoyed this Interview? Here’s How To Leave us a Positive Review on iTunes!

If you enjoyed this episode, click here for more information on How to Leave Us a Positive Review on iTunes! Your review will help to spread the word and get more entrepreneurs like you interested in our podcast. Thanks in advance - we appreciate you!


Trent: Hey there, bright idea hunters. Welcome to the Bright Ideas
podcast. I’m your host, Trent Dyrsmid, and this is the podcast
for marketing agencies and entrepreneurs who want to discover
how to use content marketing and marketing automation to
massively boost their business.On the show with me today is a guy by the name of Mike Worley.
Mike has been listening to Bright Ideas as a matter of fact
since day one. He’s listened to every single episode. I got an
email from him today, and he was explaining to me how he just
put in this notice with his job. He’s started an agency, and
he’s already got five clients on retainer, which absolutely blew
my mind.He had a whole bunch of questions for me, so I said to him,
“Let’s do the Q&A as a podcast episode, because I’m sure there
are some other people out there who would love to quit their
jobs and would love to know exactly what it was that you learned
and how you got through this whole process and how you started
an agency with a brand new baby, no less.” This is really going
to be a fantastic episode.Before we get to that, I want to tell you about a product I
recently launched, which was a huge success, called the MobiLead
Method. You can get to it at the This was
a product where I’m teaching people who want to start a
marketing agency on how to find and attract customers.Please join me in welcoming Mike to the show. Hey, Mike. Welcome
to the show.Mike: Thanks, Trent. Honored to be here.Trent: You wrote me a very interesting email that I have to say really
kind of choked me up and I want to thank you for that. For the
folks that didn’t have the privilege of reading that email, I’m
just going to let you, more or less, summarize what you wrote to
me. That’s why this interview is taking place.Mike: Yeah, not a problem. For the last three years, I have been
driving anywhere from two to three hours a day working for a
publishing company as a marketer, and have been doing content
marketing, social media coaching for authors, and big book
projects, and such. During that commute, I have taken it to try
and create my own MBA process. Part of that was listening to
every single Bright Ideas podcast and just soaking in everything
I can.I have listened to a bunch of different podcasts, but, Trent,
your podcasts, and I can say this without reserve, was one of
the ones that allowed key interviews to allow me to implement on
the spot what was going on. I’ve only hit the tip of the iceberg
just getting more into life cycle marketing right now, even. It
allowed me as a marketer to take it to a whole new level. Within
the last month, I have had a baby girl, was able to put my two
weeks in, and have five retainer clients working that are going
to become finalized in the next two weeks.

Trent: Wow. You gave yourself your on-the-road MBA, and then took
action, quit your job, started your own marketing agency, and
you’ve got five retainer clients that are going to be on board
by July 1st. You wrote me and said you’ll potentially double
your salary within the first six months. That’s phenomenal.

Mike: Yeah, it’s huge. It’s allowing my wife to quit her job. Her
dream has always been to be a stay-at-home mom. It’s allowed for
that to happen, and for us to create a lifestyle that we’ve
always dreamed of, and that I’ve heard other marketers be
interviewed on your podcast and everything. It’s not Golden
Gate, but we’re leveraging this in a way that the risk is very
mitigated. It’s been very calculated.

Trent: Yeah. Wow, especially with the new baby. That’s pretty
important. Again, I want to thank you for reaching out and
sending that email, because that made my week. When I hear stuff
like that it’s pretty cool.

Rather than turning this into the Bright Ideas is Awesome Show,
what I would rather do is talk about how you got to that mental
place, first of all. You said it was a very calculated decision
process and you really wanted to mitigate risk. I want to
understand the details of that. Then I also want to understand
how you got these five clients and that whole process.

Let’s first of all talk about, here you are, you’ve got a wife
who’s obviously been pregnant for a while, because that doesn’t
happen in just two weeks. You’re saying, “Hey, honey, I think I
want to quit my job.” How’d that conversation go?

Mike: Well, I am, at my core, an entrepreneur. I started my first
business as selling pogs on the playground when I was in fifth
grade, and getting in the principal’s office because I had a wad
of ones and looked like a drug dealer on the playground. It’s
always been in my blood, so my wife knew what she was getting
into when she married me five years ago.

Really, some of it is a mutual decision that both my wife and I
came to. Some of that was just in what her dream and her calling
in wanting to stay home. I knew for a fact, just crunching the
numbers, that I was not making near enough at this publishing
company to allow that to happen.

I have had the unique blessing of having some of the best
business mentors since I was 14 years old, and I was able to
reach out to them and tell them some general ideas I was having.
Over the next coming months they helped me really cultivate that
into something that could be sustainable. That was kind of the
beginning stages of it all.

Trent: Give me a little bit more detail on that. These mentors,
describe what kind of advice they were giving you here. You’re
this guy, you’ve got a job, did you know, first of all, what
kind of business you wanted to start?

Mike: Yeah. One of the things I’ve always taught but I’ve learned is,
I call it your KIT. It’s your knowledge, your interests, and
your talents. I really went into self-assessment mode. My wife
and I took two weeks in last September and spent it in Hawaii,
and I really took that time to just assess what it is that I’m
knowledgeable in, what I’m truly interested in, and what I’m
talented enough in to actually get paid for it.

I had been working with authors, working on different web-based
projects and such, and had some real affirmation from some very
significant business mentors. One of the guys that has been
mentoring me is a guy named John Dale. John is a really unique
content marketer. He is one of the few that was selected into
Seth Godin’s SAMBA program, and was able to study under Seth
Godin for a while. He has consulted with Martha Stewart and
Coors, and these very large companies. It was even through him
and him giving me some homework to do in assessing what this
business model would be. His affirmation in saying, “You’ve got
what it takes. Let’s walk through some of this together.” He’s
been a huge encouragement in that way.

That’s just one example in assessing that, but also seeing the
need and the problem that I could solve for leaders,
entrepreneurs, small business owners not understanding the power
of online marketing and social media and being able to leverage
some automation in there to build their business.

Trent: This resulted in your company When you
started this, did you go ahead and decide… Well the way I
teach my tribe is I say the first thing you need to do is pick a
niche. For example, my fiancee, who will be my wife by the time
this episode is recorded, Liz, she is also starting a marketing
agency, and I haven’t really talked anything about this because
we literally only decided a couple of days ago as a result of my
MobiLead Method launch.

Mike: Very cool.

Trent: We’re going to focus exclusively on dentists. I’m not going to
side track this interview on why, but the bottom line is because
it’s a wealthy niche. They have high customer value, and we can
charge premium prices because it’s worth it to them. Did you do
that with your agency?

Mike: That’s a great question, and something that I am currently
struggling with but trying to get over. For example, the five
clients that I have on retainer starting on July 1st go anywhere
from financial advisor, whose dream has been to self-publish his
book and build an online community around it. He’s a professor
at Daniels University. From him, to one of the largest non-
profits in the U.S., to a real estate tycoon here in Denver who
has a marketing software idea that he wants to bring from idea
into implementation.

I need to find what that niche is, I believe. I’m kind of
struggling through that to find what that is. From the get go,
no, I haven’t have the real estate niche or dentist or something
in that way. I don’t necessarily recommend that. It’s just that
over the last couple of years I’ve been able to be really
intentional about building a network that varies businesses and

What was truly amazing was when I took that leap to say, “I’m
going out on my own,” watching the people that responded.
Because of the way I’ve built that relational network, people
came out of the woodwork that I didn’t even think would want to
be a client.

Trent: That speaks volumes, obviously, about how you’ve conducted
yourself. For anyone listening, when I talk about the importance
of picking a niche, that doesn’t mean you turn away business
that comes knocking on your door, especially if that business is
as a result of your personal relationships. They don’t care
what’s on your website. They’re like, “Hey, Mike’s a smart guy.
I’m going to go deal with Mike.” Whether your website says you
focus on dentists or construction people, they probably wouldn’t
care. Eventually, your list of personal contacts runs dry.

Mike: Exactly. That’s what has allowed me to launch this agency, but
for sustainable reasons I really need to land in an area. I
promise I won’t do dentists.

Trent: Actually, I would encourage that you do dentists.

Mike: I’ll definitely do some research into it.

Trent: Did you buy the MobiLead Method, by the way?

Mike: No, I didn’t actually. I’ve probably read and been everywhere
on your website but did not grab that.

Trent: For the folks who don’t know what that is, it’s a product that
I just launched. If you could do, you can
get it. It’s a product that I launched to teach people how to
generate leads for selling marketing services to small
businesses. It’s the exact formula that Liz is going to be
following when she’s building her agency. In the beginning of
that, I talk a lot about the importance of picking a niche.
That’s why I’m going down this road with this line of questions.

Mike: That’s definitely something I want to grab.

Trent: I had another reason why I asked you that, and it escaped me in
the middle of that explanation, so apologies to you and the
audience for that. Hopefully it will come to me.

You are now an entrepreneur. You’ve got this jump start, as it
were, on your business, and it sounds like you’ve already
identified that you need…

Oh, there’s the idea. Now I remember why. Going back. You said
you weren’t going to do dentists. We’re actually going to be
having a mastermind, details to come, to teach other people that
they should go after dentists. There are 167,000 dentists in the
United States. Most of them do quite well financially, and are
not very good marketers. This whole dental thing came as a
result of an orthodontist that I had on my show recently, a guy
by the name of Dr. Dustin Burleson.

Mike: That was a great interview, by the way. I was going to wonder
if it came out of that conversation, because that was an
extremely eye-opening interview.

Trent: Yeah, a lot has come out of that, and if you want to get to
that interview if you’re listening to this go to and it will take you to that interview. Dustin
has been unbelievably successful as an orthodontist because he
embraced marketing automation to the nth degree.

The guy that does all of his marketing for him, I am partnering
up with, and we’re going to be basically having access to all of
the proven collateral and all the campaigns and everything.
That’s why the dentist niche. People think, “Well how can you
sell marketing services to dentists if you’ve never been a
dentist?” You don’t need to have been a dentist. You just need
to align yourself with someone who has that domain expertise.

To you and everyone listening, just because I’m going into
dentists doesn’t mean there’s not enough room for everybody. If
you want to get access to what I’m explaining and you’re on my
mailing list, there will be further announcements to come.

Mike: That’s cool.

Trent: Have you got to the point yet… I see you have your website
up. I don’t see any way that you’re capturing leads on it, so
you should fix that.

Mike: Literally, it’s one of those things that Seth Godin always
talks about. There comes a point where you need to ship and to
make the jump. My web designer that I have designing my website
and such has been about 45 days late on the initial design.
That’s literally a WordPress template that I posted up and did
some design with very rudimentally and was able to put it up.

Trent: I agree with you. Version 1 is better than Version None. It’s
not an ugly site. At least it’s there.

Mike: Yeah, there’s something there. It allows a reference point, but
in the next 30 days I’ll have my new website up.

Trent: You’ve listened to all of my Infusionsoft interviews, because
you’ve listened to every episode, so I can’t help but ask you
when are you getting Infusionsoft?

Mike: That’s one of the reasons why I even emailed you and mentioned
it in there. Earlier today, I was on the phone with Infusionsoft
trying to just talk with them and everything about how robust
the software really is. It will be happening this week. I just
have to get the cash in the bank to make that initial
investment. It’s a long-term strategy that I have to do.

Trent: I know you wanted to ask me a number of questions about that,
because that was the basis of the email, and that’s kind of why
I wanted to turn this conversation into a recorded podcast. I
thought there are a lot of people who would benefit from hearing
the conversation that is about to happen or is already
happening. Any questions you want to ask me? Pretend like we’re
not recording this, and knock yourself out.

Mike: The big argument is Infusionsoft vs. HubSpot, and those are the
two big marketing automation players that I see. I think one of
your best interviews was with a guy named Marcus Sheridan, The
Sales Lion. He’s been influential, for me, in understanding
HubSpot, and using it for certain different projects. Really
understanding the tangible differences between HubSpot and
Infusion, what would make you sway either to the left or the

Trent: I think it’s a profound difference. Think about your website as
this imaginary little wall. On the front side of that wall,
meaning out there in the world, are all the people whose email
address you don’t have yet. On the inside of the wall, are all
the people who have given you their email address.

I think HubSpot does a pretty decent job outside the wall.
They’ve got a lot of nice tools. However, you have to put your
blog on their content management system. I’m not a fan of that,
because that makes moving your content really hard to do. I’m
probably not the most informed HubSpot person in the world, and
maybe they have some really great answer to overcome that
objection, and I’ll leave that to their sales department to do,
but I want my content on my WordPress blog, end stop.

Now, behind the wall, once I collect that email address, that is
where Infusionsoft is, in my opinion, magical. Number one is the
visual campaign builder. I have a bunch of videos with more to
come on my YouTube channel. If you just come to,
there will be a link right up on the navigation bar that will
take you. Infusionsoft success stories is what it is. If you
just watch a few of those videos, you’ll realize how incredibly
simple the visual campaign builder makes it to build campaigns.

I want to talk about this word campaign, because to some people
it might be a bit ambiguous. A campaign can be used not only for
customer acquisition… All a campaign is, is a sequence of
steps. Some of those steps are emails, some of them are phone
calls, some of them might be a fulfillment of a physical
something or other, a letter or a package. Some of them might be
communication like GoToWebinar, for example. It could be any
number of steps. With Infusionsoft, you can automate, in the
campaign builder, all of those steps. It’s like negating the
need for employees, in many cases.

In my particular situation, I have lots of different campaigns
that do lots of different things. Each one of my various
products has a campaign, my overall mailing list has a campaign,
when people are scheduling an interview with me on the show,
there’s a campaign. There’s all this stuff, these sequences of
steps, that have to happen over and over again.

The visual campaign builder, notice I’m saying the word visual,
HubSpot does not have this drag and drop interface that allows
you to literally take these objects which represent an email or
a task or an http post or a fulfillment to send out cards, or an
order form or whatever, They don’t have this visual interface,
so it’s not nearly as intuitive. That is probably the single
biggest reason why I am such an incredible Infusionsoft fan and
why it works so very well for many people.

Then, there are also all these super ninja tricks you can do. I
use a third party software as a service application called
PlusThis that ties into Infusionsoft. There’s no coding
necessary. You don’t need to be an API guy, nothing. It’s just a
web interface.

For example, I talk in previous episodes and in my tutorials
about how important list segmentation is. I get all these people
coming on my lists. I’ve got this YouTube video that gets
watched 2,500 times a day, I get 20, 30 leads a day from that.
Those people, they’re really different from someone who maybe
owns a marketing agency and is coming to me. You just need to
segment your lists. It’s so incredibly important. If you don’t,
you’re sending the same message to everybody and that’s going to
decrease your open rate, and also increase your unsubscribes
because your content is not highly relevant.

Mike: Just curious, how many segments do you have for Bright Ideas?

Trent: Four main ones. Actually, as we record this, I’m literally
about to roll out a major upgrade to my own back end campaign
because I recently learned about PlusThis. I’m going to launch
this new lead magnet called the Conversion Tactics Toolbox. It’s
going to replace the Massive Traffic Toolbox. I’m honestly
better at conversion than I am at traffic. I get a really high
conversion rate off Bright Ideas.

I’ve got this four part video series, so everybody will go
through that four part video series. Then, there’s kind of what
I call my warm-up sequence after that, which is where I share
some more personal information about me, and I highlight a few
of the key interviews that would have more of a broader

During the opt-in process, when someone first puts in their name
and email and they hit the submit button, it actually takes them
to a separate form, and it says to tell more about you, and it
asks them to pick one of those four segments in a little drop
down list, and it asks them for their last name and mobile
number. If they want to give me that stuff they can, and if they
don’t want to they don’t have to.

Then, what I’m able to do, when they fill out that second form,
depending on which of the four choices in the dropdown box they
choose, I can send them to any one of the four different thank-
you pages. Those thank-you pages are then highly relevant to the
segment that the people have just placed themselves into. I can
make special offers.

One of the things that I’m going to test is big discounts on
some of my products very early on, because some people are
probably going to want to buy them. Other people may not. I want
to test it and find out. The other thing about segmenting is
that from that moment forward, all the other stuff that people
get will only be very specific to the segment they’re in.

My four segments are marketing agency owners, general small
business owners, solo marketing consultants, and then people who
haven’t even started a business yet. Can you see how diverse
their interests are? It would be so incredibly foolish of me to
send everybody the same stuff.

With Infusionsoft, it’s so easy to do this. Because the campaign
builder is visual, when I go back after the fact, maybe a month
later, I get deep analytics within the campaign. I can literally
roll my mouse over these little objects on the campaign builder.
I can roll my mouse over individual emails that are part of a
sequence that are a part of campaign. I can see the open rate
and the click through rate. I can look at my campaign after the
fact all through this visual map, and see which emails are
performing really well, and which ones aren’t.

Hopefully you’re getting an idea of the campaign builder, but
here’s the other thing. Infusionsoft, and to the best of my
knowledge HubSpot doesn’t do this, also runs my affiliate
program, it’s my online shopping cart, and it’s my customer
relationship management system. I don’t have this spider web of
databases and all these different disparate systems that I have
to connect, painfully. Everything is in one place, and I’ll tell
you that makes my life so much easier.

Mike: The little research that I’ve done, HubSpot integrates with
other CRMs, but the CRMs that they even integrate with, I have
not enjoyed working on in the past anyway. I’m sold.

Trent: Are there any more questions that you think you want to ask or
that you think I should ask you that would make this interview
more important? If not, we’ll chop the interview off, and the
people will have gotten value by listening to this point.

Mike: I think just one thing in being a listener for so long and such
has been that you are a content creator. You’re always creating
and such, so one thing I would like to know is how do you keep
things organized? How do you create your content? Using
Infusionsoft to be able to segment your lists and different
things, how much time do you spend a week on that?

Trent: Not nearly as much as you would think. It’s a good question,
though, so I’ll answer it. Up to this point, we have been doing
three posts a week. That’s an interview on Monday and Friday and
some other kind of post in the middle, which more often than
not, lately, has been a training video, usually five minutes
long or less, to show some type of capability of Infusionsoft.
Why do I do that? A lot of people don’t understand what
Infusionsoft can do, and I’m an Infusionsoft affiliate, so it
does actually generate revenue for me.

To do all that, I do the interviews generally on Monday and
Tuesday, and it only takes me about an hour of my time to do an
interview. The prep time before an interview is not very long,
to be honest with you. It’s pretty easy to do. Post-production
is even easier.

Then, Liz, my fiancee/soon-to-be wife, takes over from there.
She makes sure that the transcripts are ordered and that the
post goes up, and we now do caricatures for our guests and she
orders the caricature. She runs the editorial calendar, she
makes sure the posts are published on the days they’re supposed
to be published and that we notify our guests that the post is
published. That used to take more of my time. I would say, for
me, content creation is, at best, a day a week. At best.

Now, with that said, remember I said I wasn’t the greatest
traffic guy in the world? If you go and look at a friend of
mine’s blog, Dan Norris,, his written content totally
kicks my butt. He puts a lot of time. He’ll sometimes work on a
post for several weeks before he publishes it. I am entirely too
lazy to do that, and I would much rather go with the multi-
author approach, which is one of the things that’s on our
roadmap to do, to try and get people writing for Bright Ideas.

If you’re listening to this, and you have a message, and you’re
a good writer and you want to get it out, please come to Bright
Ideas and apply to be a writer. It’s not nearly as bad as you

A question that you didn’t ask but I’m going to answer because
it’s an important one, it why do we all produce content? Well,
in my case, I do it for list growth. At the end of the day, the
real money is in having a list, right? I don’t give stuff away
just because I’m trying to be the most generous guy in the
world. I give stuff away because I want people to freely be able
to test drive an experience with my brand and me, through these
interviews, but I want their email address and I want to know
lots about them so that I can give them an opportunity to buy
the products that I offer that would be relevant and helpful to

One of the things that I did recently was this product launch of
The MobiLead Method. It was amazing, 1,450 new customers in
seven days. We did $40,000 in revenue so far. My list expanded
by just over 2,000 people in seven days.

What’s the takeaway from that? We’re actually going to decrease
the amount of content we do by one. We’re going to do one
interview and probably one written post per week, because the
feedback that we got… Yours was just one of the amazing
testimonials. Some other people wrote me some raving stuff, and
it’s still coming in. I never got that kind of feedback by
giving all my stuff away for free. Go figure. I had to charge
money. This was a big course. It wasn’t like a blog post by any
stretch of the imagination. I worked on it for a long time. The
results, in terms of list growth, traffic, revenue,
opportunities that came as a result of all that exposure,
eclipsed the results that we got from publishing free content by
like a factor of 20.

Mike: Wow.

Trent: Yeah. Phenomenal. There’s a lot more to it. I’m going to
actually write a blog post that goes into detail on what this
launch was, how I made it happen, blah, blah, blah. Oh, you put
me on hold, Mike.

Mike: I got a call in the middle of that. Sorry about that.

Trent: No worries. I was like, “Hey, he put me on hold.” No one’s ever
put me on hold on the show before.

Mike: I’m on my cell phone, so my bad. It’s all good.

Trent: Anyway, I’ve sort of lost my train of thought now. The summary
to answer your question is, it’s not as much time as you think.
I’m still going to be creating content, but the content that I’m
creating is going to be for my customers, as opposed to all for
free, all for the blog.

Mike: Yeah, totally. Well, you’ve built a community where you can do
that now, I think. You have the time and the attention of many,
so the value that you create is exceptional. To hear those kinds
of stats doesn’t really surprise me.

Trent: Thank you. It’s been a treat, I will say, to be the recipient
of this past week. What a wedding present, of course, as well.

Mike: Congratulations.

Trent: Thank you. To all of my customers and not-yet customers who are
listening to this, a very heartfelt thank you to all for making
this such an enjoyable week of my life. I think is probably, not
probably, this is absolutely been the most enjoyable week I have
ever had since going online several years ago. Again, who’d have
thunk that I would have gotten so much positive feedback by
selling stuff instead of giving stuff away? It’s mind boggling
if you think about it.

Mike: Yeah it is. Well, it’s all about value, though. When you make
genuine value for people, they’re going to respond, and you’ve
done that. You’ve proven that. Again, it’s awesome.

Trent: I want to add one more thing, too, for you and the people that
are listening. One of my reasons why I was a little bit
reluctant to go down this product launch road to begin with was
I wasn’t sure what type of customer I was going to get. I did a
webinar, and there were about 500 people on it. I could have
never had a 500-person webinar beforehand, but this was pretty
easy because I got 1,400 new customers. I did a poll at the
beginning of the webinar that said, “Do you have a business
already? Yes or No.” Seventy five percent of the people on that
webinar said they already have a business. That’s my target

I definitely make stuff for people who are just getting started,
but I also want to make more stuff for people who are already in
business because I know a lot of them aren’t getting the results
they want to get yet, and they have some money to spend.

I was very surprised that that large a percentage of this new
audience of customers was already in business running agencies
or solopreneur marketing consultants. It was pretty darn

Mike: Well, that’s the thing. If you didn’t use the right tool, you
wouldn’t have been able to even get that information and such.
What do you use for your webinars?

Trent: For my live ones, I use GoToWebinar. For my pre-recorded
webinars, I use Evergreen Business Systems by Mike Filsaime. I
saw a stat on a tweet. I think it was from Jay Baer, who has
also been on my show just recently. It was whether people
preferred live or recorded webinars. Only 16% of business people
actually preferred a live webinar.

I should explain this because this is another revenue strategy
that’s all on autopilot and people really seem to like hearing
ideas like that. I have this other webinar. It’s called Seven
Secrets to Selling to Small Business. You can get to the sign-up
page if you go to

That opt-in page takes you into my funnel and to a fully
automated webinar. The sole goal of that webinar, aside from
capturing another lead for me, is to educate people, because
every webinar has to educate. If you just go on there and sell,
you just piss people off, and they don’t even want you. It’s to
educate people about the concept of life cycle marketing, it’s a
seven-step process, and most people don’t really know much about
it. Woven into that, is obviously a soft pitch for Infusionsoft.

That webinar, in the last month, maybe 40 days, has, just in
Infusionsoft commissions, $3,000. We’re not even an Infusionsoft
certified consultant yet, which we’re going to be. Once we are,
that same volume of business would have been $6,000 on

All I have is a VA that reaches out and sends a couple hundred
emails every day to the contact page of my target market of
agencies that more or less gives them an invitation to that
landing page. I pay her, I think, $7 an hour. It takes her about
three hours to do that, so $21 a day is my lead spend. Twenty
one dollars a day is a whole lot less than the roughly $3,000
that that made.

My point is if you have anything like that and you’re not using
an automated webinar system and you don’t have someone doing
some type of email-based outbound marketing to your specifically
selected target market, maybe you’re leaving some serious money
on the table.

Mike: Yeah. I love that. I think that’s from your interview from the
Rocket and Co. man. What was his name?

Trent: Casey Graham of the Rocket Company.

Mike: Casey Graham, yeah. He mentioned his pre-recorded webinars in
the same type of way, and I never even really thought about a
recorded one before then. That’s something I will have to
implement in the future, for sure.

Trent: Take a little bit of time to set up. What I generally do is
I’ll hold a live one or two so I get the feel for exactly what I
want to do. I record both of those live ones and I pick the
better of the two, and I turn that into the right kind of file,
and I upload it to the right place in that webinar software, and
then I set it all up. It’s not really that hard to do. You don’t
have to write any code or anything like that. It’s all through
the interface.

The big trick in the webinar is, first of all, never ever
advertise a recorded webinar as a live one because that’s not
true. Don’t say good morning or good afternoon because you never
know what time of the day people are going to listen to it. I
always just say, “Welcome to the webinar. Happy to have you
here, blah, blah, blah.” That kind of thing.

You should attend my recorded one or somebody’s recorded one
first, so you can sort of get an idea. You want to make it look
as live as possible, but just don’t say it’s live. Don’t say it
is, and don’t say it isn’t. Really, it’s the same message. As
that survey that I quoted earlier said, 84% of the people don’t
care. They just want to watch it on their own time. What do you
say we wrap up?

Mike: Yeah, for sure. I just want to do one thing. I’m launching in
the next couple of weeks with five clients. I’m going to be
implementing Infusionsoft and such. What I’d like to do is, I
have five and I’m hoping to scale this and grow this into a
seven-figure agency. When I do that, I want to come back and
talk with you.

Trent: Absolutely. You don’t even have to wait until you’re at seven
figures. I’d love to have you back, Mike, when you hit a run
rate. When you have your first $40,000 to $50,000 month, let me
know. Heck, even when you have your first $30,000 month.

So many people who are like you were, they’re driving in their
car, they’re going back and forth, and listening to these
things, like, “Gosh, I’d love to,” or “I really should,” but
fear. Even those of us who have already taken the plunge,
sometimes we have crappy days or crappy weeks, or even crappy
months, and we need pick-me-ups. For me, when I listen to the
success of other entrepreneurs, there is no better pick-me-up in
the world than that. Hearing other people having success, doing
stuff that I know I can do, helps immensely. Don’t wait too
long. That’s all I’m saying.

Mike: That’s good.

Trent: All right, man. Well, thank you for making the time to be on
the show with me. We will talk to you soon.

Mike: Not a problem. Thank you, Trent.

Trent: To get to the show notes for today’s episode, go to If you’re listening to this on your mobile
phone, just text TRENT to 585858, and I’m going to give you
access to some very special stuff. The Conversion Tactics
Toolbox, which is a four-part video series where I go into
detail about how I make Bright Ideas convert as much of the
traffic as I do. We’re far above average, so I hope that you’ll
find that very interesting.

That’s it for this episode. I’m your host, Trent Dyrsmid. Thank
you very much for tuning in and being a listener. It is truly my
privilege to be able to produce these wonderful podcasts for
you. I look forward to seeing you, or having you see or hear me
rather, in the next episode. Take care.

About Mike Worley

mike-worleyMike Worley lives with his beautiful wife Holly in Denver, Colorado. He is a digital marketer and entrepreneur that has helped authors, artists, and business owners sell more by creating communities around their product, service or brand. As a marketer and entrepreneur his drive has been to become an expert in defining and solving problems in the online marketplace.

When not working online, Mike unplugs by playing in the Rocky Mountains. When the first snow hits Summit County, they are skiing, and as soon as the snow melts, they are putting on their hiking boots. They are thrilled to have had their first little girl Ellyana join their family in May of 2013.

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